<Loyal_Imperial> CHAT! CHAT! CHAT!
<Loyal_Imperial> It's 8.
<Bly> Hoo-rah!
<Dunc> Chat is now
<RF> !!!!
<Jello> Huzzah.
<Bly> OK, I'll start
<Bly> With a poll, of sorts
<RF> The chat is primed!
<Dunc> Okay. Overall thoughts?
<Bly> Who here liked this book?
<Horsey> it was okay
<Dunc> It was okay/meh.
<Loyal_Imperial> Mediocre.
<Trip> *cricket*
<Horsey> should've ended 50 pages earlier
<Kobe> it was average
<Bly> I liked it.
<Kagari> Started off slow... got good in parts... end was a bit dragged
* becca will be largley lurking and listening now as she hasn't read the book yet.
<whiskers> Book was okay, not as good as some of the others and there were some annoying moments.
<Bly> Yeah, you can shoot me now...
<Bly> :p
<Loyal_Imperial> Parts were brilliant.
<Loyal_Imperial> Parts were abysmal.
<Kagari> Yes, annoying moments...
<Trip> I couldn't get past chapter 4
<McEwok> It was better than the previous ones.
<Trip> I think I decided I can't be bothered
<Bly> LI: The first one being Pellaeon, the second one being the Mandos?
<Loyal_Imperial> Better than Sacrifice and Bloodlines.
<McEwok> Trip pointed out some... sillines... I overlooked, though.
<Loyal_Imperial> Second was Mandos.
<Dunc> I liked the Luke and Ben bonding.
<Loyal_Imperial> First was Niathal and Jacen.
<Bly> AH
<Loyal_Imperial> Ben too.
<Bly> Yes
<Trip> I think I'm too analytical
<Trip> in my reading
<Trip> or something
<becca> what sillines?!
<Bly> Niathal was GREAT in this book
<Trip> because boy howdy
<Jello> non legeo ut audiam
<Trip> Bec
<Trip> asking me, or McE?
<Dunc> Okay. Shall we start with the Imperials?
<whiskers> Mandos was indeed one for me. Nothing against them, but I hate when they're shoved down the collective throat of Star Wars fans as the best thing ever
<becca> does legere mean read and audiam mean listen?
<Loyal_Imperial> Imperials.
<Bly> Dunc: sure
<Loyal_Imperial> Good.
<Jello> yes
<becca> Trip - whoever will tell me what was silly!
<Bly> I'll start
<Dunc> Whiskers: OT, but WORD.
<Loyal_Imperial> Imperials, ON!
<Trip> Sure
<Bly> Pellaeon was a BADASS in this book
* LosDosMos has joined #eu
<McEwok> Imperials.
<Trip> Bec, I'm sure it'll come up
<Horsey> MARLY!!!!!!!!!!
<Bly> Seriously
<Loyal_Imperial> Marly?
* Dunc changes topic to 'Revelation Chat . TOPIC: Imperials..'
<Trip> I'll stick with the topic
* Horsey sets mode: +v LosDosMos
<becca> no worries then :)
<Trip> LDM!
<Bly> Of course, Jello hates me now for saying that.
<Trip> Long time no see!
<LosDosMos> Trip!
<Bly> :p
<McEwok> Pellaeon... was a tired old man. Does Traviss have something against Humphrey Littleton?
<Jello> Of course I do.
<Bly> Hey, it's LDM.
<Kagari> I couldn't help but laugh at the Moffs waiting in the hall for Gil to die <_<
<Jello> Hi LDM, long time no see
<Dunc> I just can't take Daala seriously.
<Dunc> AT ALL.
<Loyal_Imperial> The Moff numbers was annoying.
<Havac> Jesus Christ. This list of release dates is fascinating.
<Horsey> I can't take her seriously either
<McEwok> Shush, you uppity little Sullustan
<Loyal_Imperial> *were
<Bly> Dunc: that was hard, as well
<Trip> I'm thinking Pelly's insane
<Havac> Oh, and ZOMG MARLY!
<McEwok> DAALA
<RF> Its Daala.
<LosDosMos> Hey guys! Been super busy with work and school. Glad to see y'all!
<McEwok> Superweapons.
<whiskers> Kagari, that was indeed entertaining. Liked that Daala was back and we got a first name.
<Dunc> She's DAALA. She's like the very definition of early bantam/KJA fail.
<Loyal_Imperial> Daala's superweapons were annoying.
<Jello> ...Daala has a first name?
* becca wants a sekrit stash of superweapons
<Bly> Yep
<Horsey> yes
<Havac> Natasi Daala.
<Bly> Natasi
<Loyal_Imperial> Natasi.
<whiskers> Natasi, or something
<Loyal_Imperial> Renatasian.
<Jello> ...........
<McEwok> Dunc: word.
<Kagari> I laughed out loud
<becca> NATASI! Like BSG. It's I, Satan backwards.
<Kagari> XD
<Bly> Dammit, Havac beat me to it
<whiskers> And I was beat to it.
<McEwok> No, Jelila.
<RF> Ami Daala
<Bly> Rather ironic, really
<Dunc> Plus, what's up with everyone treating her like she's Thrawn 2.0?
<McEwok> If Pellaeon can be Gil, I see no reason why Daala can't be Jelila.
<Bly> Hmm...if she was Rentasian...
<Bly> ...could Daala know Vuffi Raa?
<McEwok> Dunc: KT is a friend of KJA, I believe?
<Dunc> I roll my eyes when they do that to Thrawn, but this is DAALA.
<Trip> Well
<Bly> MCE: Yeah, i think that's it
<Trip> Han was shitting hisself in Darksaber
<Trip> when Daala showed back up
<Kagari> lol
<LordHydronium> With laughter?
<RF> Because she's nuts.
<Trip> With fear
<RF> She'll kill them all!
<LordHydronium> Fear of laughing?
<Dunc> The retcon to end all retcons: Daala as competent.
<RF> By wrecking a star destroyer.
<RF> :p
<Bly> I loved how Pellaeon kept thinking about how hot Daala was
<RF> ...
<Trip> Han has a tendency to lose his shit when an author wants to make his imp warlord skurry
<Bly> It was so hilarious
<whiskers> LOL
<sabarte> hahahahahahah
<Horsey> I also don't like how she's got superpower weapons
<Horsey> no more of those
<Loyal_Imperial> Me neither.
<Bly> Aye
<Trip> That's scary in redneck
<sabarte> It's Karen
<Loyal_Imperial> The Moffs were absurd.
<sabarte> she likes overwhelming tech advantages
<Trip> The remnant was absurd
<Loyal_Imperial> Waiting outside for Pellaeon to kick it.
<sabarte> see: triple zero
<Horsey> and I don't
<RF> 9_9
<sabarte> and various mando gadgets
<Trip> Is the remnant part of the GA?
<Bly> No
<Trip> I'm baffled
<Horsey> there was too much of it between the Mando armor shit and the big guns
<LordHydronium> Do I have to see Triple Zero? :P
<Trip> utterly baffled
<Loyal_Imperial> Baffling.
<becca> ...I'm sure the remnant WAS part of the GA
<becca> wasn't it?
<Loyal_Imperial> Well...
<Loyal_Imperial> Pellaeon was SC.
<Kagari> No?
<Bly> LH: nah, your version was accurate
<RF> I thought it was.
<Trip> That was the implication
<LordHydronium> It was as of Dark Nest, at least.
<Loyal_Imperial> Supreme Commander of the GADF.
<Bly> LI: SC?
<Bly> Ah, nvm
<Dunc> So, Pelly's death.
<Loyal_Imperial> Pelly heading the Defense Force sure makes it seem that way.
<Trip> XD
<Loyal_Imperial> He's dead.
<Loyal_Imperial> At 92.
<Bly> Yep
<Kagari> more than two paragraphs
<Loyal_Imperial> Love to see that holonet news page.
<Trip> Only good part
<Bly> so much for sixty being the new forty
<becca> I remember thinking it was cool they were part of it.
<LordHydronium> He retreated from life. :(
<Loyal_Imperial> Hah.
<Bly> :|
<Trip> I loved his dying words
<Trip> so damn lame
<Trip> poor pelly
<Trip> he fails even at that
<Jello> what were they?
<Trip> XD
<becca> He retreated, and when he couldn't retreat anymore, Daala CORPSENAPPED him and then kept retreating for him!
<Loyal_Imperial> "Go rot somewhere else, Villip"
<Bly> Anyone else wondering what Abel's thinking of his retcon being tossed out the window?
<Trip> Villip
<Trip> scathing!
<Trip> lol
<Bly> If I were him, I'd be pissed.
<Loyal_Imperial> So would I.
<Kagari> lol
<RF> Villip isn't even a curse. WTF.
<sabarte> wait
<sabarte> wait wait
<Loyal_Imperial> I'd retcon it right back.
<becca> If I were him, I'd get pissed
<becca> and then I woudln't care anymore.
<sabarte> Daala is Renastasian?!
<Bly> Though at least he kept Spar
<Loyal_Imperial> Yes.
<RF> "You dirty communications device!"
<sabarte> cool!!!
<Loyal_Imperial> THAT Renatasia.
<whiskers> Bly: I'd be annoyed, personally, if I were him
<Bly> I rather liked that character
<Loyal_Imperial> Lando's Renatasia.
<Havac> Actually, his last words were "Quille."
<Loyal_Imperial> Well, that too.
<LordHydronium> Shaquille?
<sabarte> :D :D :D
<Loyal_Imperial> Moff Quille.
<Trip> I still wish he'd called out to Mitty
<Bly> Moff Shaquille?
<RF> Shaq-fu!
<Trip> then
<Dunc> I thought Lando was Sacorran?
<Kobe> J'Quille?
<Trip> in the end
* sabarte is now happier with Revalations
<sabarte> a little
<becca> Shaq-attaq!
<McEwok> Daala did torture Han, remember?
<LordHydronium> Dunc: He is.
<sabarte> No, this is from the Lando trilogu
<Loyal_Imperial> From the Lando Triliogy.
<Loyal_Imperial> *Trilogy
<Dunc> ahh
<sabarte> it's a world the Imps destroyed, basically
* McEwok is slightly belated
<sabarte> in conquering
<Bly> Could Daala know Vuffi Raa?
<LordHydronium> Socorran, though. Not to be confused with Serroco or Saccorean. :P
<RF> A backwater colony planet.
<sabarte> and there's this mercenary sort that thinks it's Lando's fault
<sabarte> Of Vuffi Raa, probably
<Loyal_Imperial> She'd be one of the survivors.
<Bly> he did help destroy Rentasia
<sabarte> in his disguise
<Kobe> when I read Quille, I immediately thought of a SW character named J'Quille
<Loyal_Imperial> Probably.
<sabarte> Probably a kid of a survivor
<Horsey> Gentleman Gil annoyed me
<Trip> I liked Pelly & Daala's lil' song
<Horsey> someone referring to him as that
<Trip> It was so cute
<LordHydronium> Sounds like an old-timey boxer.
<Kobe> "Gil" period annoyed me
<Loyal_Imperial> Not sure on that.
<Trip> tum tum tum toom teem tum tum tum toom tee tum
<Bly> Yeah, same here
<Loyal_Imperial> Could be a young survivor.
<Kagari> Yep
<Loyal_Imperial> Otherwise she'd be under 59.
<Bly> He's PELLAEON, dammit! Not "Gil"!
<Trip> He'll always be pelly to me
<Bly> Sheesh
<Dunc> No one can spell Pellaeon
<Kagari> :|
<Loyal_Imperial> Pellaeon.
<Dunc> I can't.
<Loyal_Imperial> Pell + Aeon.
<Kobe> then Gilad
<LordHydronium> Hans Moleman > Gil.
<Bly> Pellaeon
<Bly> Pellaeon
<Bly> Pellaeon
<Bly> Pellaeon
<becca> can anyone confirm to me that daala mentions having a son and a granddaughter?
<Loyal_Imperial> Yes.
<Kobe> but not Gil
<Bly> Yes
<Loyal_Imperial> She does.
<RF> Pelly
<becca> HAHAHA!
<Dunc> Yes, Becca.
<Loyal_Imperial> The poor people.
<Kagari> becca yes
<Jello> Old Fuss and Failure
<Trip> It... spawned?
<becca> thanks
<Horsey> she does, bec
<Kagari> she does
<becca> that's...hilarious
<Loyal_Imperial> Yes, Trip.
<Bly> Trip: yep
<Loyal_Imperial> It spawned.
<Dunc> SPAWN OF DAALA!
<Loyal_Imperial> And the spawn spawned.
<Kagari> I had to read it twice
<Trip> Good lord
<Kagari> I was like wtf
<becca> Trip - those were my words exactly way back in the spoiler thread.
<sabarte> and yet again the youngest generation is female
<sabarte> where are the men?
<Bly> ...
<Loyal_Imperial> Gone.
<Bly> good question
<Loyal_Imperial> Long gone.
<sabarte> it's like they're trying to make a harem for ben or something
<becca> It's like...my favourite crack!theory.
<Loyal_Imperial> Hah.
<McEwok> Where was the Daalabrat mentioned?
<RF> ...
<becca> err, I mean crack!spoiler
<becca> in the book
<Kobe> "Gone 'Til November"
<sabarte> I mean the post-YJK generation
<Bly> end of the book, MCE
<becca> OMG - (daa)LabRat
<Dunc> Very briefly.
<becca> hur hur
<Kobe> lol bec
<Horsey> So is Daala now in charge of the Remnant?
<Loyal_Imperial> Nope.
<Bly> I hope not
<Kagari> No
<Loyal_Imperial> The Moffs are.
<becca> well she has all these prototype superwapons, I'm sure i can make some sort of joke...
<Horsey> I was a bit confused there
<Bly> Or the EMpire is fucked
<Horsey> but the Moffs were killed
<becca> oh god, the empire is really fucked if the moffs ar ein charge
<Kagari> Not all of them
<Bly> The Empire is fucked either way, becca
<sabarte> I dunno
<becca> they never agree on anything and it'll go back to being a petty, objectively evil type of place
<Trip> Well, they're forked until Soontir comes back
<sabarte> probably better than Daala :P
<Loyal_Imperial> Lecersen, Rosset, and Grand Moff What'sname are still alive.
<Trip> the remnant's always been a backwater useless poo hole
<whiskers> And Trip beat me to my thought.
<Dunc> Daala was just... what? Splinter force?
<Bly> I'm hoping that happens in Invincible, Trip
<Horsey> ah, so someone could come in and take over
<Bly> because that would totally redeem Denning in my eyes
<Trip> Speaking of Soontir
<Bly> Yeah?
<Trip> I might have to withdraw my support of the IWoD
<Havac> Soontir needs to get his ass in the Remnant.
<Loyal_Imperial> WHAT?
<Loyal_Imperial> WHAT?
<Loyal_Imperial> WHAT?
<Loyal_Imperial> WHAT?
<Loyal_Imperial> WHAT?
<Trip> Yes
<Horsey> Why?
<Bly> MWHAAAAAT?!?!?!
<Trip> Unless Denning fixes her
<Trip> which might happen
<Trip> but otherwise
<Bly> Whaddya mean "Fix"?
<becca> Is she *that* bad in Revelation?
<Loyal_Imperial> I didn't think so.
<Horsey> She's hardly in Revelation
<Bly> same
* Dunc changes topic to 'Revelation Chat . TOPIC: Jaina's adventures in Mando'ade..'
<Trip> Jag's better off impregnating Maarek's daughter before he dies
<Bly> apart from the Mando thing, she's not that bad
<Havac> Oh noes, she is has Mando freind!!!
<Horsey> she's in more than she usually is, but for the most part its not about her
<McEwok> brb
<McEwok> Jag/TK is starting to seem fun to me, though.
<Kagari> The early Jaina chapters SUCKED
<McEwok> Just as crack.
<Kagari> I was bored
<Dunc> That first-person bit... ugh
* Darklighter has joined #eu
<becca> really? that's diappointing to hear, Sey. I championed the bloody montage and now it's not even a big one? :(
<Bly> aye
<Trip> Dunc
<Trip> who's worse?
<Trip> Stackie or Traviss?
<Horsey> welcome, Darklighter
<whiskers> I wanted her to just go off on them after a while. Tear that super armor off of them with the Force and laugh.
<Loyal_Imperial> Traviss.
<Trip> With the first person shit?
<Bly> Stackie
* Horsey sets mode: +v Darklighter
<Darklighter> evening :-)
<Kagari> lol
<Dunc> Fett has NOT been hunting the Solos all her life. :P
<Bly> RC:HC was pretty dam good!
<Kagari> Yeah....
<Loyal_Imperial> SIRALT!
<Loyal_Imperial> That was his name.
<Bly> Who?
<Loyal_Imperial> The Grand Moffling.
<McEwok> Traviss.
<Bly> Ah
<Kagari> also, I still cant understand why the authors decided training with Fett was the best idea evar
<Loyal_Imperial> Grand Moff Siralt.
* larg has joined #eu
<McEwok> What happened to Siralt?
<Bly> Kagari: because he'
<Loyal_Imperial> No clue.
* Horsey sets mode: +v larg
<McEwok> I just saw one line...?
<Trip> Kag
<Bly> is Boba Fett!
<Loyal_Imperial> Still kicking, I assume.
<Horsey> welcome, larg
<Bly> dammit
<Loyal_Imperial> Yes, McEwok.
<Loyal_Imperial> One line.
<Bly> fricken typos
<Trip> it's because Traviss is writing for this
<Trip> dur
<Kagari> lol
<Bly> :|
<Loyal_Imperial> He's one of the 2+ Grand Moffs.
<Jello> Trip, you sadden me.
<Jello> profoundly.
<Dunc> Because all that Mando stuff had to funnel into the A-plot somewhere. :P
<Bly> ...
<Trip> Jello, I kid
<Kagari> Traviss must worship Fett
<Trip> but only slightly
<Trip> I wanted to cry when she popped beer caps
<Horsey> let's stick with book topics and not author topics :)
<Bly> For God's sake, people, LFL APPROVED this.
<Trip> Like, Jaina, nooo!
<Trip> Bly, I know
<becca> LFL approving stuff doesn't make it good.
<Bly> So some of the blame lies with them,
<Trip> They're insane
<Trip> or asleep at the wheel
<Kagari> True
<Dunc> LFL approves a lot of things.
<Kagari> lol
<Kagari> LFL :(
<Dunc> That doesn't mean it was the best idea.
<Bly> so at least spread out the bashing a LITTLE.
<Loyal_Imperial> I'd like to know what they WOULDN'T approve.
<whiskers> Like continuity errors and outright rewrites
<Bly> ;)
<Loyal_Imperial> Borleias = banking world.
<McEwok> Trip, but don't you understand - popping beer-caps is what Jedi powers are *RIGHT* for, because they must be enslaved to the MANDO way!!!!111eleven!!!
<Kagari> Oh god, the plot holes
<Bly> whiskers: I DID prefer Abel's version
<Horsey> I was disappointed in the Jaina training
<Trip> Trust me, Leland's gotten plenty of flak lately, bly
<Loyal_Imperial> Confederation = almost nonexistant.
<Dunc> Gasp!
<Kagari> Horsey, me too
<Bly> GASP!!
<Horsey> I wanted to read about more of the fighting techniques and stuff
<Jello> she did... what?
<becca> Thing is, I'll put the blame for accidental continuity errors at LFL's feet but I disagree that we should render the author blameless.
<Kagari> It was kind of lame
<Horsey> it all seemed completely mental to me
<Loyal_Imperial> Jello: You haven't heard?
<Dunc> Don't tell, they'll exile you from Mandoland. ;)
<Trip> Jello, I told you
<becca> The author is still primarily in control of the content of the novel, plot, characterisation, creative decisions that are quite broad
<Darklighter> the jaina training certainly could have had more depth of detail
<Kagari> Kind of like it was just thrown in there to take up pages
<Bly> becca: I didn't say completely blameless, I just said to spread out the blame
<Loyal_Imperial> With the Force, Jello.
<whiskers> I haven't even read the article, I'm just ticked that a preestablished retcon was changed for seemingly no real reason.
<Trip> I'm almost to rooting for the young Ms. Stele
<becca> fair dos, bly
<RF> Ms. Stele... XD
<becca> what does jaina actually learn from the mandos, anwyay?
<McEwok> I think the blame can be evenly thrown at Traviss, LFL, and the Jaina/Jag 'shippers with the mysterious early copies.
<RF> YES.
<Horsey> This book was played up to be all about Jaina's training and it really wasn't
<Kagari> To be "different"
<Bly> becca: nothing specific
<Horsey> that's why I'm disappointed
<Trip> Becca, absolutely nothing
<Kagari> I got nothing
<Bly> just how to suckerpunch your enemies
<becca> so far it seems to be how to not be a jedi anymore, and how to fight with a huge unwiledy sword
<Trip> Speaking of which
<Bly> and go temporarily insane on demand
<Darklighter> besides the beviin jekyll and hyde issue
<Trip> When did Bobby ever kill Jedi?
<Horsey> she learns to go mad psycho
<Trip> Or is this some yet-to-occure bullshit?
<becca> well...she's already actually insane
<Dunc> ,...Sometime.
<Horsey> balls to the walls
<Loyal_Imperial> In the past.
<Trip> Like a pre-retcon?
<becca> so that shouldn't be too hard
<Loyal_Imperial> He tried with Mace.
<RF> Tales. :p
<becca> she has a death wish and no sense of personal mental space.
<whiskers> And failed with Jaden Korr...
<McEwok> Who, Jaina?
<Horsey> I wondered that too, Trip
<Loyal_Imperial> Didn't he have a lightsaber in his duel with Vader?
<whiskers> Or got bored and left.
<Trip> Because every single character goes on and on about how nobody's killed more Jedi than Fett
<RF> Tales referenced him Killing Jedi.
<becca> ewok, yes.
<Loyal_Imperial> Or did he pick that up on the way?
<Trip> and that Fett's spent a lifetime killing Jedi
<LordHydronium> And got KOed by a totally untrained Havet Storm. XD
<Trip> blah blah blah
<Trip> Like, the fuck?
<RF> Wait, what?
<Loyal_Imperial> RF: ?
<RF> Really?
<RF> What?
<Loyal_Imperial> RF: ?
<McEwok> I think the problem started with his lightsaber in _Tales_. I wish I could find the old discussion of that...
<Loyal_Imperial> What what?
<RF> He's never killed a Jedi on-screen.
<RF> Ever.
<Trip> Yeah
<Loyal_Imperial> On-screen, of course not.
<Kagari> lol
<Trip> Thus the confusion
<becca> I mean, I think Jaina's awesome, but...no sense of personal mental space at all. Which also...awesome.
<Loyal_Imperial> Off-screen.
<Loyal_Imperial> On Traviss's screen.
<RF> Off-screen, there aren't enough Jedi around for him to have killed many.
<Trip> Apparently, apparently he's just Greevy and Ventress all rolled into one
<Dunc> The Jedi-killing thing existed before traviss.
<RF> Maybe during the Purge he killed a few.
<Loyal_Imperial> Or a Durge.
<Bly> With cooler armor, Trip
<RF> But not many.
<Loyal_Imperial> That's it!
<Loyal_Imperial> Retcon x2!
<Loyal_Imperial> He's mistaken for Jango.
<Trip> And apparently the mandies are a whole race of Jedi-killers
<Bly> ...
<Kagari> haha
<Loyal_Imperial> Referencing Galidraan?
<Trip> Seriously
<Dunc> I think the main problem with the Fett/Mando stuff is what whiskers said before.
<Trip> Who the hell knows
<Jello> Trip, just to be sure, there isn't really a Miss Stele, yes?
<Loyal_Imperial> No.
<Horsey> Marly? are you upset about Tahiri?
<Bly> Dunc: I forget, what was that?
<Trip> Jello, no
<Loyal_Imperial> There isn't one.
<Trip> I made her up
<Jello> good
<Trip> But she > Jaya at this point
<whiskers> Stuffing the Mando=awesome down our throats
<Trip> unless Denning keeps up what he started in the invincible preview
<Horsey> yeah, I'd agree with that whiskers
<Horsey> it makes me resent them though
<Kagari> The Invinvible preview did nothing for me :(
<Loyal_Imperial> Haven't read it.
<Trip> It's pretty eh
<Kagari> Invincible, even
<Horsey> agreed
<Trip> but it at least gives me hope for troy fixing stuff
<whiskers> It almost makes me resent them.
<Trip> Since he has Jaina all suspicious of Fett
<Dunc> I am mostly apathatic to the whole mando thing, but this series has pushed it to the point where I just want to wince at every mention.
<Trip> and Fett back to being an ass
<RF> Sigh.
<Darklighter> mando culture is interesting... mando = awesome, not so much
<Loyal_Imperial> Too.
<RF> Fett was over his feud with the solos.
<Loyal_Imperial> Much.
<Loyal_Imperial> NABOO!
<RF> Like, completely over.
<Bly> I wish DKM wrote the Fett parts
<Bly> collaborated with Traviss, perhaps
<Bly> that'd be nice
<Trip> Darklighter, Mandie culture used to be interesting
<Horsey> I dislike the Mando culture
<RF> He wouldn't do that.
<becca> OMG, I would just *die* if DKM wrote more Fett.
<Bly> Trip: Now it's just SO overdone
<Horsey> when it boils down, they're no different from everyone else in the Galaxy
<whiskers> Bly: I have the trilogy, but haven't read it yet.
<becca> that would be aweosme
<Horsey> I liked thinking of them as different
<RF> DKM said before he doesn't like LFL editing, etc.
* Loyal_Imperial adds another popular writer to the list he doesn't like
<Trip> Back before Ms Traviss decided to warp them into her own personal Utopian Society
<Kagari> ;o
<Bly> RF: I know
<sabarte> Jango's killed a lot of Jedi, though
<McEwok> RF: wasn't the issue Bantam editing?
<Bly> it'd still be awesome, though
<RF> Yes.
<becca> speaking purely from previous Mandie-culture outings, the attitude that it's morally coherent bothers me.
<Dunc> McE: A lot of the same folks are still in charge
* McEwok wonders if "Naboo" was Karen trying to prove that the issue was Mandos rather than over-use. :p
<RF> But I don't think he'd get along with Traviss, based on their completely different takes on teh character...
<Loyal_Imperial> The Naboo thing nearly gave me a headache.
<Havac> McEwok: it wasn't even consistent, since a lot of stuff that got shot down for DKM got approved elsewhere.
<Loyal_Imperial> The worst one was the naval battle.
<Kagari> Yeah
<McEwok> Dunc: Rothman, Rostoni - but that's it, and Rothman hardly line-edits.
<Trip> Does Naboo = England?
<RF> Movie planet references *in general* are stupid.
<Dunc> Oh, everything bein naboo-that and Naboo-this?
<Loyal_Imperial> THE. CHARACTER. IS. A. MON CAL.
<McEwok> Havac: who edited the short-story volumes.
<Loyal_Imperial> REFERENCE. MON CALAMARI.
<Bly> KJA
<Loyal_Imperial> A. WATER. PLANET.
<Bly> @Mce
<Trip> No, his problem wasn't with KJA
<Bly> I know
<McEwok> Trip: I think Naboo = Cornwall or Naboo = Wales. Or maybe Naboo = Spain
<Bly> he liked him
<Horsey> lol
<Trip> KJA actually went out of his way to help him out
<RF> Mon Calamari? Is that in the Holocron?
<Havac> It was with whoever was above KJA.
<Loyal_Imperial> Naboo = Italy.
<Kagari> lol
<becca> DAMMIT I REFUSE TO COME FROM NABBO
<becca> NABOO
<Loyal_Imperial> Naboo is Italy.
<becca> GIVE ME A COOL PLANET TO COME FROM!
<McEwok> Naboobies!
<RF> Sounds like a Naboo-boo
<Loyal_Imperial> Coruscant.
<McEwok> Mandalore?
<Loyal_Imperial> Anaxes.
<becca> NO
<Loyal_Imperial> Atrisia.
<Dunc> Now I'm just confused
<becca> I SAID COOL
<Trip> McE, yeah
<Trip> maybe
<McEwok> Tern.
<McEwok> ;)
* Trip is slow again
<becca> Ewok...okay.
<becca> But I get to live near Al-Qion
* Dunc changes topic to 'Revelation Chat . TOPIC: ????.'
<Kagari> lol
<Horsey> I'm ok with Jaina and Mirta being friends
<Loyal_Imperial> TOPIC: NABOO!
<Trip> Oh, good topic
<whiskers> Al-Qadim. :P
<Bly> I like Mirta, actually
<Horsey> Let's talk Tahiri!
<Loyal_Imperial> Okay.
<Loyal_Imperial> That works.
<Bly> Sey: ok
<becca> whiskers - AD&D FTW!
<McEwok> becca: we'll see.
<Trip> So this is all the WTFs, right?
<Kobe> what'll be Tahiri's Sith name
<Loyal_Imperial> I didn't mind her in this book.
<Dunc> Yeah, Jaina and Mirta being pals is fine.
<Kagari> Tahiri needed to have a narrative perspective
<Horsey> I liked Tahiri in this
<Loyal_Imperial> Me too.
<becca> Darth I'm-Tricking-Jacen?
<Darklighter> pellaeon got the shaft, being axed by tahiri
<Trip> Jaina and Mirta being pals is not fine
<Horsey> Darth Villip
<Dunc> Darth nostaligia
<Loyal_Imperial> First time I wasn't waiting for her to die.
<Loyal_Imperial> Darth Vong.
<becca> Dunc - you win
<Loyal_Imperial> Vongerella!
<McEwok> Trip?
<Kobe> Darth Riina
<Loyal_Imperial> Darth Vongerella!
<Kagari> lol
<Dunc> Ehh, just kill her off.
<Trip> McE
<Trip> ?
<RF> Vongarella is already taken.
<Horsey> find something that you can turn 'Anakin' into
<Dunc> Kill them all off.
<Bly> I was rather irritated by how Tahiri was described as being this blonde bombshell...
<Trip> (This is so damn hard to follow)
<McEwok> What's wrong with Jaina/Mirta.
<Bly> who happened to be a Sith
<Horsey> all the YJK's?
<Dunc> Anacanned
<Trip> Ah
<Trip> What's wrong with them?
<Dunc> All the YJKs can die.
<Loyal_Imperial> Yes.
<Horsey> lol
<Loyal_Imperial> Well, most of them.
<Dunc> Except Jaina., maybe
<Horsey> Dark Nikana
<RF> Half already have.
<Loyal_Imperial> A few are worth keeping alive.
<Loyal_Imperial> The rest can go.
<Dunc> If she gets over the mando thing like she did the bugs
<Bly> LI: Like who?
<Trip> What's wrong is that the ENTIRE MANDIE SUBPLOT NEVER SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED
<Trip> ahem
<Bly> keep, I mean
<Dunc> RF: MORE.
<Loyal_Imperial> The Wookiee can stay, I guess.
<whiskers> Trip: I say toned down, personally.
<Horsey> Jag will knock the mando shit out of her
<Horsey> I have faith
<Loyal_Imperial> Didn't really mind him.
<Kagari> Toned down, yeah
<Dunc> Not literally, Horsey.
* darth_sylar has joined #eu
<Trip> Well, i'm referencing Jaina's involvement
<Trip> Jaina going to train with fett
<becca> if it was toned down, though, where would it fit in?
<Bly> Sey: I don't doubt it
<Trip> is nonsensical
<Trip> and utterly indefensible from an IU standpoint
* Dunc sets mode: +v darth_sylar
<Loyal_Imperial> My biggest problem.
<Trip> Like, she never should have gone to Mandalore
<Trip> period
<Loyal_Imperial> She went to train with Fett BECAUSE HE WAS A MANDALORIAN.
<Loyal_Imperial> If anything, it should be because he's the galaxy's TOP BOUNTY HUNTER.
<Loyal_Imperial> Key difference there.
<Kagari> haha
<Trip> That would be vaguely more tolerable
<Trip> but not really
<Bly> Aye
<Loyal_Imperial> She wasn't undergoing bounty hunter training, she was taking Mando training.
<darth_sylar> And supposedly he is the best Jedi killer in the galaxy.
<Horsey> she kept repeating because of what he'd done with Jedi
<Loyal_Imperial> The former would have been more sensible.
<Loyal_Imperial> And at least vaguely tolerable.
<Trip> More than mandies, yeah
<Trip> but again, only very very slightly
<Loyal_Imperial> If he's the best, then at least it makes SOME sort of sense.
<Loyal_Imperial> But no.
<Trip> Since there are a thousand more logical people to go to
<Bly> Aw, crap, I gotta go
<Bly> see you guys
<Trip> Like, oh, Kyle
* Bly has quit IRC (Quit: CGI:IRC.)
<Trip> Jag
<darth_sylar> but what Jedi has he killed?
<Loyal_Imperial> It has to be because he's the Mandalorian's glorified war leader.
<Trip> darth_sylar, well
<Trip> you know...
<Loyal_Imperial> Kyle would have made sense.
<Trip> there was that one...
<Loyal_Imperial> Since he's...
<Trip> uh...
<RF> He hasn't killed any named ones.
<Trip> er...
<Loyal_Imperial> Killed Dark Jedi, you know.
<Trip> I mean, well, uh...
<darth_sylar> my point exactly.
<Loyal_Imperial> Desann, Tavion, Jerec and cronies....
<Trip> Well shoot
<RF> There was that one time....
<becca> if she wanted unusual fighting styles, let's see. Kyle. Saba.
<becca> to start with
<RF> Oh wait, she was a fake Jedi.
<Trip> he has to have killed a Jedi at some point!
<RF> Hmm...
<Trip> I mean, he's boba fett!
<Trip> RF
<Loyal_Imperial> Even Korr would have made sense.
<RF> Yes.
<Loyal_Imperial> He cut his way through a small army.
<Dunc> Surprising that hasn't been filled in.
<Trip> maybe she glanced through Twin Engines of Destruction
<Loyal_Imperial> Or assumed.
<RF> What about it?
<Trip> And didn't notice that it was a fake sith
<becca> honestly it irritates me that Jaina was a trickster strategist throughout NJO
<becca> what happened to that?
<Trip> and that it was Jodo Kast
<Loyal_Imperial> I didn't mind.
<Trip> and not fett
<Kagari> They screwed her over in LotF
<Kagari> :/
<Kagari> total
<LosDosMos> The same thing that happened to Tahiri being over Anakin's death
<becca> she should have been in the early books more
<RF> Trip, I meant Empire: Betrayal
<darth_sylar> right now the best Jedi killer alive in the galaxy is Jacen. He killed Nelani and Mara.
<Trip> Ah
<Loyal_Imperial> The whole series needed compacting.
<Jello> the good Betrayal, then
<Loyal_Imperial> This felt like a halfway point.
<RF> Only, Vader killed her.
<RF> :p
<becca> because, i see the appeal of having her show up at the end and be kick ass, just take up the reigns closer to the end
<becca> but...it needed more establishing
<becca> or at least for Revelation to be as focused on jaina as traitor was on Jacen or something
* RF imagines Boba Fett as written by Stover...
<darth_sylar> one of the biggest mistakes I feel was making the timeline all in a few months, not over a few years
* Loyal_Imperial hides
<becca> RF it'd be awesome and you know it!
<RF> Yes. I loved Traitor.
<Loyal_Imperial> It should have been years, yes.
* LordHydronium imagines Fenn Shysa as written by Stover...then realizes he won't have to. :D
<Dunc> I dunno. It seems awfully drawn-out
<Horsey> I'd rather Jacen wasn't in power that long
<Loyal_Imperial> Actually...
<Kagari> darth_sylar, which is why I'm concerned wtf they're going to do with the plot in Invincible
<Trip> A few months is good if you had authors who can work together
<Kagari> :/
<Loyal_Imperial> I'd have liked to see Niathal split four-five books ago.
<Horsey> at least this way Luke got rid of him in short order
<darth_sylar> and if the rumors of the length of Invincible are true..
<Loyal_Imperial> Remnant should've shown up in book three too.
<Trip> Horsey
<Loyal_Imperial> 299 pages.
<Loyal_Imperial> Way too short.
<Dunc> I think this author musical chair game has really backfired on them.
<Trip> I'm pulling for the Jacester
<Loyal_Imperial> Indeed.
<Kagari> 299 pages?
<sabarte> Yes
<Kagari> WTF
<Trip> 100%
<Loyal_Imperial> Luckily.
<Horsey> I know you are, Trip
<Loyal_Imperial> I think they've learned from this.
<Kagari> :|
<Trip> I hope he kills Jaya, the idiot
<LordHydronium> Eh, more happened in Inferno than most LOTF books to that point.
<RF> I thought they'd learned from the NJO
<Dunc> In theory... Yes. In reality, it's just like one bump after another.
<darth_sylar> its like 3 seperate trilogies, especially when you read the Traviss novels
<sabarte> They need, like, trilogy, single book while next trilogy's being written, trilogy
<RF> About plotting everything beforehand...
<Horsey> they've learned we as fans will buy and read anything
<LordHydronium> Page count doesn't mean much.
<whiskers> 299. That is just horrendous.
<Loyal_Imperial> RF: They did.
<Loyal_Imperial> They was better.
<Loyal_Imperial> *This
<RF> Yes...
<Loyal_Imperial> Now the next series will be better than this one.
<Dunc> 299 might be manuscript pages
<whiskers> Wow, that was some long lag.
<Loyal_Imperial> NJO was better than YJK.
<Trip> Wait, what?
<Dunc> That would come out to more in final layout
<Loyal_Imperial> LotF beats NJO.
<Horsey> page count means nothing, Rev was huge and full of shit
<Trip> lotiff as better than NJO?
<LordHydronium> I think people are spoiled at how lackadaisical the series has been to this point.
<Loyal_Imperial> Next series > LotF.
<Trip> LI, Li
<Loyal_Imperial> ?
<RF> Star Wars is 30 years old. They should be good at this by now.
<Dunc> Anything is better than YJK
* Trip shake shis head
<Trip> tsk
<Horsey> it could've been compacted into a shorter book with better content
<Dunc> Up to and including The Crystal Star
<Loyal_Imperial> The NJO bored me.
<Loyal_Imperial> Terribly.
<Trip> :P
<Trip> Fair enough
<Loyal_Imperial> No suspense.
<Loyal_Imperial> No excitement.
<darth_sylar> I hope there isnt a next series. just some trilogies and single novels
<Loyal_Imperial> Entirely too predictable.
<Dunc> The NJO was too scattered.
<LordHydronium> Just because it's moved at the pace of refrigerated molasses so far doesn't mean Denning has to keep that pace to close it.
<Loyal_Imperial> Little focus on the important stuff.
<Dunc> Too much going on, too many characters
<Dunc> TOO. MUCH.
<Loyal_Imperial> Exactly.
<Trip> So far as continuity or whatever goes, though, the NJO is a dream compared to loltiff
<Kagari> NJO got boring in parts
<Kagari> too many bad authors
<Trip> See, I like massive casts
<Trip> See Legacy
<Trip> the good one
<Loyal_Imperial> So do I.
<Loyal_Imperial> I just like them interesting.
<Loyal_Imperial> I hated half the NJO cast.
<Trip> Bah
<Dunc> Okay, okay, we need to get back to Revelation
<Trip> Actually, it's funny
<darth_sylar> While NJO had its flaws, I enjoyed it more than I have enjoyed LOTF as a whole
<Trip> I dislike the majority of the NJO books
<Trip> but as a series?
<Trip> It's great
<Trip> as an event, IU?
<Trip> Phenomenal
<Trip> Okay, Revelation
* Dunc changes topic to 'Revelation Chat . TOPIC: Ben..'
<Trip> sorry
<Trip> Hm
<Kagari> :X
<darth_sylar> and whats the point of making Tahiri, Caedus' apprentice now?
<Trip> Ben bores me immensely
<Loyal_Imperial> NJO another time. Ben = good.
<Kagari> I wanted to punch Ben
<Trip> so I shall sit this one out
<Loyal_Imperial> Detective Ben.
<Loyal_Imperial> Better than whiny Ben.
<Kagari> His parts were so annoying
<Dunc> I like Ben, but the first half ddn't really seem... ummm... all there to me.
<darth_sylar> Ben is the star of CSI: Coruscant
<sabarte> I still think he shouldn't have been force-sensitive
<Horsey> I liked Ben
<Kagari> lol
<Loyal_Imperial> Me too.
<whiskers> Ben was great
<Darklighter> officer ben, ordering jag and zekk...
<LordHydronium> I like Ben in 4 out of seven books so far. Give me good news. :(
<Dunc> He was better once he got to Endor
<Horsey> no that was how Ben thought of himself
<sabarte> but that's not really a revalations issue
<LosDosMos> I'm not sure I buy Ben as a "moral compass" this soon after Sacrifice and Inferno
<LordHydronium> Ben doesn't remember overhearing Lumiya. What is up with that?
<Trip> So, why did he forget about seeing Shira & Jacen together?
<Loyal_Imperial> Maybe he didn't.
<LordHydronium> That's not just a dropped ball, it's a fucking bowling ball on the foot.
<darth_sylar> I think this new detective Ben is the answer to non force sensative Ben, since they made him force sensative, they are trying to make it so he doesnt become a Jedi.
<Loyal_Imperial> I think it's the opposite.
<Kagari> So I was confused at the end of the book with Ben... with the whole Jacen and the confession where he said Mara came after him first...
<becca> i think ben had an excellent moral compas in sacrifice
<whiskers> darth_sylar: I certainly hope not
<becca> it was...skewed by what he'd beenlearning, but he *was* quesitoning
<Trip> Kag, that's something I want to discuss
<becca> and eventually worked out what was going on.
<darth_sylar> I hope not too.
<Trip> bring that up again
<Loyal_Imperial> They're making it so he can become a new kind of Jedi.
<Kagari> I don't know, maybe it's because I read it at 7 am
<Kagari> D:
<Trip> the jacen confession at the end
<Loyal_Imperial> What about it?
<Trip> I'll wait
<Loyal_Imperial> It fits.
<Trip> until this topic is over
<Horsey> pfft we already have Corran who's done stuff like that
<Horsey> he's not a 'new kind of Jedi'
<Kagari> Like the part
<Kagari> where Ben said something like
<Loyal_Imperial> Sure he is.
<Loyal_Imperial> Not useless.
<Kagari> .".... and he's not a bad guy"
<Kagari> or whatever
<Loyal_Imperial> A Jedi who isn't totally useless, completely new breed.
<Kagari> total confusion
<Horsey> the Jedi aren't totally useless now
<Trip> Horsey, the "Holocron" probably doesn't say Corran's a cop
<Loyal_Imperial> When was the last time we saw Jedi running law enforcement missions as they did in the OR?
<Horsey> no, but it should say he WAS a cop
<Trip> Well, that's what I ment
<Trip> meant
<Loyal_Imperial> Or doing something other than keeping track of their own rogues?
<Trip> it's probably an accidental omission or something
<Loyal_Imperial> They seem to be spending most of their time cleaning up after their own screwups.
<Trip> LI, are you... are you a Ruusan Order supporter?
<Horsey> wasn't he sent on a mission in the NJO because of his CorSec training?
<Loyal_Imperial> Not quite.
<darth_sylar> they are doing a bad job of cleaning up, i.e. Jacen
<Horsey> so it has been used before
<Trip> Oh, bummer
<Loyal_Imperial> In a way.
<Loyal_Imperial> Complicated.
<Loyal_Imperial> I'll explain another time/
<Trip> I was about to be excited
<Loyal_Imperial> I prefer it to the NJo.
<Loyal_Imperial> Greatly.
<Trip> I may be the only one
<Loyal_Imperial> Wait.
<Loyal_Imperial> Ruusan Order = PT ORder?
<Trip> Yeah
<Loyal_Imperial> Then yes.
<Loyal_Imperial> Very much so.
<Horsey> so what's the confusion with Ben's evidence?
<Trip> Oh, sweet
<Loyal_Imperial> Thought you meant Ruusan itself.
<Trip> you're forgiven your NJO disdain
<Trip> :P
<Loyal_Imperial> 1,000 BBY.
<Trip> No, I meant Ruusan Reformation
<Dunc> TOPIC?
<Loyal_Imperial> Niathal.
<Trip> Jacen's confession
<Horsey> Jacen's confession
<Loyal_Imperial> What about it?
<Trip> plz
<McEwok> Has Jacen actually done anything *illegal*
<Kagari> No?
<McEwok> I mean, except the Bothans... ;)
* Dunc changes topic to 'Revelation Chat . TOPIC: Jacen and Niathal.'
<becca> Yes
<Horsey> its not the illegality
<Kagari> At least I didnt think so
<Loyal_Imperial> Not that I can think of.
<Kagari> <_<
<Horsey> its the fact that he's a Sith
<darth_sylar> he snapped that LT. neck.
<Trip> Yeah, killing Tebut
<becca> screwing with the law to change the spirit of the laws of the land = crime
<Trip> that's about it
<Loyal_Imperial> So did Vader.
<becca> at least if it's on a par with USA legal systems
<Kagari> But the Mara thing
<LordHydronium> Killing Tebut was awesome.
<Loyal_Imperial> Don't think that works out as a crime.
<darth_sylar> and Vader isnt exactly Mr Morals.
<Kagari> She did technically threaten him first :X
<becca> you can't just make laws that change laws without approval
<Loyal_Imperial> If so, then Darth Lawyer can just change the law.
<Trip> Yeah, the mara thing
<Trip> okay
<McEwok> Summary justice may be within the rights of either warship captains or GAG officers.
<Loyal_Imperial> Probably is.
<LordHydronium> Jacen needs to freak out and kill people more often. I like him best then.
<becca> you can commit crimes against the constitution by attempting to implement unconstitutional laws, LI
<Loyal_Imperial> A holdover from the Imperial era.
<LordHydronium> Ailyn, Telbut...
<Trip> he's completely telling the truth in his confession
<Kagari> lol
<Trip> so, ...?
<LordHydronium> Insane murder suits him.
<Trip> Are we supposed to think he's bad?
<Loyal_Imperial> GA Constitution is probably different.
<Loyal_Imperial> I expect that it's looser with that sort of thing.
<McEwok> Trip: is he? Didn't *he* pursue Mara down there?
<Loyal_Imperial> Trip: No.
<Kagari> I didn't think so
<whiskers> For all we know, Aurra Sing was among those that "disappeared"
<Darklighter> dictatorhips do seem to have different constitutions...
<Loyal_Imperial> Don't think so.
<becca> That's an assumption. In other ways it seems to resemble earth law.
<darth_sylar> and what was up with him just admitting to anyone he is a Sith?
<Trip> No, he's in the right
<Trip> self-defense
<becca> well...USA and UK type law
<Trip> Mara was a forking lunatic
<Trip> She'd lost her shit
<Trip> totally
<Kagari> Yeah
<McEwok> Jacen is... mentally ill, and perhaps brainwashed by Lumiya.
<Trip> and he says so
<McEwok> Trip: agreed.
<Trip> and he's right
<Trip> So, ?
<Trip> I guess what I'm asking
<Kagari> which is what I think everyone realized at the end of the book...
<darth_sylar> I can't picture Palpisdious sitting in his office telling a random stormtrooper, "Hey, do you know I am a Sith Lord named Darth Sidious?"
<Kagari> or at least I think
<becca> most modern democracies make it illegal to willfully change the law so that it's no longer a democracy
<Trip> is, is Traviss clever than we give her credit for?
<Kagari> I mean, Jaina did say she wanted to think that Jacen instigated it
<Trip> Did she mean for Mara to be a deranged lunatic?
<becca> Sidious, now, he had the backing of the senate...a bit different. That *was* legal.
<Loyal_Imperial> Unintentionally, if so.
<LordHydronium> You sound like McEwok. :P
<Loyal_Imperial> Becca: What I'm attempting to say is....
<McEwok> It's not *traditionally* illegal in Senate democracy: ref. Palpatine.
<Loyal_Imperial> In their galaxy....
<Trip> Hydro, I know
<Trip> :P
<Trip> But seriously
<McEwok> Jacen *was* given his powers by the Senate.
<Trip> the confessional was weird
<Loyal_Imperial> I think their history has shown that they've reasons to need to change the constitution more easily than in our world.
<Trip> Jacen said exactly the impression I got
<Trip> So suddenly I'm like, eh? Was Mara going crazy intentional?
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* ChanServ sets mode: +o Rohniss
<Dunc> Jacen has clearly not read the evil overlord tip sheet
<Kagari> lol
<Horsey> grrr I know Traviss addressed this illegal thing in Rev
<becca> LI - this government was set up by a group of Rebels massively dedicated to democracy. I severely doubt they'd have no provision for manipulating the law to render it undemocratic being a crime.
<Trip> Is Jacen supposed to be sympathetic?
<Kagari> speaking of that scene
<Horsey> I can't find the quote though
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<becca> If it's not illegal, it's stupid.
<Dunc> Horsey: Yes, he tells a droid to change the law
<McEwok> becca: this government was a wartime kludge in the NJO.
<McEwok> Trip: it's hard to tell. I agree.
* Dunc sets mode: +v Coffee
<Darklighter> call it a legal loophole
<Kagari> Why during the last few paragraphs did the author use Jacen again instead of Caedus? I was so confused
<Loyal_Imperial> Becca: Rebels > NR.
<Horsey> cuz I read it and thought "Gee she must be listening in on our chats cuz its like she's talking to Trip"
<whiskers> So, well Jaina sneak in through human-sized vent ducts?
<McEwok> Kagari: did she?
<Kagari> For like one sentence
<becca> And using a legal loophole to exploit the law thereby creating a dictatorship would, under any sane legal system, be a crime.
<Loyal_Imperial> The NR was considerably less...how shall we say...idealistic than the Rebels.
<McEwok> From what *patchworkz7* says in the spoiler thread, I think that KT *may* be OD'ing on narrative ambiguity.
<Trip> This government has been shit from the get-go
<Kagari> I thought it was an error
<McEwok> To Trip
<Dunc> So if McE is Denning, who here is Traviss? ;)
<Trip> McE
<Horsey> Sabs
<Darklighter> sith lord logic isn't always sane...
<McEwok> Dunc.
<Trip> That's where I got the idea
<Loyal_Imperial> Trip: Bingo.
<McEwok> Which was why she asked.
* Dunc is insulted.
<Horsey> lol
<Loyal_Imperial> The galaxy is a screwed-up place.
<Trip> well, I mean
<becca> The NR may have become less idealistic, but it was *formed* by the rebels
<Loyal_Imperial> And rightfully should be.
<Loyal_Imperial> Formed and changed.
<becca> USA is less idealistic than the founding fathers, probably, but the founding fathers were the ones who made up the original laws.
* Coffee has quit IRC (Quit: CGI:IRC.)
<Dunc> I am not and have never been a Fettlover.
<darth_sylar> Sisious was pretty sane, IMO
<Trip> part of what got me thinking about maybe Traviss being more clever than I think
<Loyal_Imperial> Look at what happened to Borsk.
<McEwok> becca; it's all Ackbar's fault.
<darth_sylar> *Sidious'
<Loyal_Imperial> From Senator to criminal to Chief of State.
<Trip> Woah now
<Loyal_Imperial> Under normal law, that should logically be illegal.
<Darklighter> and there are those in the us who like to think of the constitution as a living document subject to change
<Trip> Let's not go saying mean things about Borsk
<McEwok> Trip: I wonder if she's being *too* clever. It just ends up muddled, I fear.
<Kagari> lol
<becca> having just won a democracy, I find it hard to believe they'd make no attempts to safeguard it from the stort of things that killed it *last time*
<Trip> McE-- oh, I agree
<Trip> The net result is still not all that great
<Loyal_Imperial> Example 2.
<Loyal_Imperial> Cal Omas.
<Loyal_Imperial> He was in power for an awfully long time.
<Trip> But I was operating under the impression she was just... simple
<Trip> :P
<Loyal_Imperial> Seems a little...odd.
<sabarte> she's also blairbashing
<Horsey> Speaking of too clever, she tried really hard for humor in this book
<sabarte> heavily
<becca> LI - Margaret Thatcher was in power for like, thirteen years.
<Horsey> it felt forced for the most part and sometimes it was even innappropriate
<Kagari> By using the word "borked"
<Loyal_Imperial> Exactly.
<Dunc> That's a surprise. :P
<Kagari> XD
<becca> Unlike the USA most people don't have a statutory limit to the number of terms they can serve
<Loyal_Imperial> But for a galaxy-spanning government....
<Kagari> It was forced
* sabarte belatedly, is not traviss
<Kagari> The Fett and Jaina humor bits
<Kagari> oh god
<Kagari> so bad
<Horsey> ya
<becca> We have *evidence* that Jacen manipulated the law. We have *no* evidence that Omas was rigging elections.
<Horsey> so uncharacteristic of Fett, imo
<Loyal_Imperial> ?
<LordHydronium> I remember, I think from Sacrifice, Jacen saying "You ain't seen nothing yet." :|
<Loyal_Imperial> Rigging elections?
<Loyal_Imperial> Not what I meant.
<McEwok> becca: no, other people rigged them for him.
<Trip> Bec, he kinda has a track record for that sort of thing...
<Trip> :P
<becca> I mean, Cal Omas' situation isn't analogous to Jacen's criminal activity.
<Loyal_Imperial> Allow me to dig up the necessary information.
<becca> Ewok OH GOD I KNOW DAMN YOU SKYWALKER
<LordHydronium> Omas = Putin? :P
<McEwok> becca: forty years is a long time?
<Horsey> something in the beginning I laughed at, but most of the other stuff was an eyeroll or a furrow
<Kagari> Horsey, yeah...
<Trip> Oh, new question
<Kagari> I cringed
<Kagari> a lot
<becca> Fact is, though, whether or not Omas *originally* got into power illegally - what Luke nad Lando did was certainly *unethical*
<Loyal_Imperial> Okay, found it.
<Horsey> I appreciate the attempt, because I love humor in books, but if you can't do it well then please don't
<becca> Omas' illegalities doesn't render Jacen's activities less illegal.
<Loyal_Imperial> I'm not referring to how he got into power.
<Havac> It wasn't Luke. Luke just said, "I don't want to know."
<Loyal_Imperial> At all.
<Loyal_Imperial> Something completely different.
<Kagari> She was trying to be way too sarcastic
<Darklighter> or at least call in allston to give you the humour lines
<Kagari> D:
<Trip> Hav, c'mon
<Trip> don't be a Luke apologist
<Loyal_Imperial> It's that he stayed in power for what, 11 years?
<Dunc> It was lando and karrde
<Havac> It was Karrde and Lando, with some help from Booster, who pulled it off.
<Trip> :P
<Horsey> and sarcasm falls flat when its just text
<Trip> Luke approved it
<Loyal_Imperial> The SC was limited to 2 four-year terms.
<becca> Hav - why would he have said, "i don't want to know" if he didn't need plausible deniability?
<McEwok> becca: you do raise an interesting point - Jacen is NOT a democrat. Does that matter?
<Trip> He just kept his hands clean
<Havac> And he has it.
<Loyal_Imperial> If the NR/GA was to be so democratic, logically they would want to avoid the Palpatine scenario.
<Loyal_Imperial> And would limit the terms their leader could serve.
<Havac> I'm just saying, Luke didn't actually rig anything. He just knew that his friends were.
<becca> Hav - that doesn't make it *ethical*
<Havac> Oh, of course it's not ethical.
<becca> Ewok - it makes it *illegal* if he's operating *within* a legal democracy.
<Trip> Because he couldn't stomach the idea of having a CoS who didn't bend over and drop his pants for his Jedi
<Havac> He just didn't rig the vote.
<becca> But the vote woudln't have been rigged if he hadn't asked
<Trip> (Which is why I lol'd later when the dog pulled free of the leash)
<Dunc> Do we need a new topic? A Revelation topic?
<becca> the fact that he didn't know the details of the vote rigging is semantic
<Loyal_Imperial> Yes.
<Loyal_Imperial> Niathal.
<Trip> Sure, Sith
<Loyal_Imperial> Fondor.
<Trip> @ Dunc
<Havac> Name the system!
<Loyal_Imperial> Fondor!
<Trip> What the fork is a Sith anyway
* Dunc changes topic to 'Revelation Chat . TOPIC: Fondor.'
<Trip> Okay, fondor
<Loyal_Imperial> Fondor was good.
<Trip> nice place
<Horsey> how can you not know, Trip, everyone else in the galaxy does
<Loyal_Imperial> Great battle.
<Trip> I hear it has good food
<Darklighter> good tactics
<whiskers> Interesting battle.
<McEwok> Was it originally meant to be Corellia?
<Dunc> I found most of the Fondor stuff pretty boring.
<Kagari> This was the most interesting part of the book
<Kagari> imo
<Dunc> But hey, battle scene. To be expected.
<Horsey> agreed, Kagari
<Trip> I didn't get that far
<Loyal_Imperial> One of the only interesting parts in the book.
<whiskers> Liked reading Jacen's defiance and Niathal's reaction.
<Loyal_Imperial> Kral running away. He takes after Pelly.
<Horsey> I <3 Luke's power
<Trip> I did read the Jacen-Mandie scene, though
<Trip> I was disgusted
<Loyal_Imperial> Me too.
<Trip> /disgusted/
<Kagari> Jacen saving Tahiri was epic
<Horsey> She should've said who was with him in the XJ's
<Horsey> that could've been a Corran name drop!
<Kagari> lol
<Darklighter> just luke and some random jedi, instead...
<Horsey> how hard would it have been?
<whiskers> Or the first Farlander sighting in 10 IU years.
<darth_sylar> why did they try so hard to make Jacen look good by saving Tahiri, and being so worried about her?
<Darklighter> he needs his apprentice
<Kagari> Hmm
<Kagari> That
<Kagari> and
<Trip> Sylar, it is odd
<becca> I'm actually intrigued by the notion of casting Jacen in a heroic light, versus the mandos and daala
<Dunc> That bothered me. tahiri is totally expendable
<becca> problem is, that means that we're not sympathetic to the Mandos
<Trip> coupled with his confession
<Kagari> I think we was trying to rebuild morale through most of the book anyway
<darth_sylar> yes he does, but it was way too heroish.
<becca> which i doubt was her goal .
<Loyal_Imperial> Not too much, I would say.
<McEwok> becca: I *think* I agree.
<McEwok> Maybe it was meant to be irresponsible? :p
<Horsey> it had nothing to do with saving Tahiri
<Loyal_Imperial> Jacen was the hero.
<darth_sylar> Jacen is the villain of this series, he doesnt need hero moments
<Loyal_Imperial> Of the book.
<Trip> Like I said earlier, maybe Traviss is a bit more clever than we think
<Horsey> it had everything to do with a Mando getting a shot off at Jacen
<Kagari> anti-hero XD
<becca> I'm always good with screwing with the expected tropes of Jedi and Sith; it's even better if you give the Sith theheroic tropes while they're still *evil*
<McEwok> Horsey: good point.
<Horsey> and Fett being able to have killed him
<Trip> Or, maybe not
<Horsey> that's how I read it
<Loyal_Imperial> Jacen, your Friendly Neighborhood Sith.
<Kagari> lol
<Horsey> cuz it doesn't make sense otherwise
<McEwok> becca: I'm not convinced, because "heroism" and "evil" just DON'T FIT.
<Loyal_Imperial> I think they do.
<Loyal_Imperial> Quite well.
<becca> No: ratbastard Sith, who sometimes, commits acts of unparalleled heroism!
<Loyal_Imperial> From a certain point of view.
<McEwok> Sey: you win a Golden Ewok.
<Horsey> Jacen is a self centered lunatic and he wouldn't have gone after Tahiri
<Horsey> yay!
<whiskers> I think that they can.
<McEwok> "evil" = depraved, villainous, selfish.
<Horsey> oh my gosh!
<Loyal_Imperial> Point?
<McEwok> "hero" = selfless.
<Loyal_Imperial> You can be all of those and still a hero.
<Trip> I think "evil" is a silly term, myself
<Trip> so :P
<Loyal_Imperial> So do I.
<Kagari> Indeed
<McEwok> Trip: agreed, but they're trying to run Jacen as BOTH.
<Loyal_Imperial> Good and evil, good on paper, not so good in practice.
<whiskers> And Tahiri's rescue couldn't have been selfish in some way?
<becca> Ewok - true. But you can make your evil overlord perform the *tropes* of heroism
<McEwok> Whichd on't work.
<becca> and thereby you subvert the tropes themselves with interesting results
<becca> whiskers - it was, that's my point.
<Trip> But yeah, McE, I agree
<darth_sylar> the only selfish thing I can think of is his need to keep an apprentice
<McEwok> becca: oh, sure. Niathal's ALL heroic tropes. :p
<Loyal_Imperial> Lack of.
<whiskers> Becca: things are flying by fast, so I can't read all the posts.
<becca> So your villain saves the girl against incredible odds. He's still an evil villain.
<McEwok> EXCEPT IN THAT MOMENT.
<Trip> This is something that post-RotJ has always puzzled me about
<Loyal_Imperial> Trip: ?
<McEwok> Trip: per L_I?
<darth_sylar> and I am not complaining that he saved Tahiri, even Sidious goes to save Vader, but its how worried, and how badly he needs to save Tahiri that bothers me.
<Trip> How much the authors are being sneaky
<Trip> Like, well, you guys know how I feel about the "Big Three"
<Trip> And Rebels/NR
<Trip> So yeah
<Trip> :P
<LordHydronium> You're their biggest dan.
<becca> Well, everyone except tahiri has left him.
<LordHydronium> *fan
<McEwok> Trip: I think there's a difference between "sneaky" and "good".
<whiskers> He's lost an apprentice in Ben, he may not want to risk losing yet another so soon.
<Trip> I often wonder if they're /trying/ to make the "heroes" reprehensible
<Trip> Or the "villains" sympathetic
<Loyal_Imperial> Switch places.
<Loyal_Imperial> They can be both.
<Loyal_Imperial> From a certain point of view.
<McEwok> KJA is sneaky, but not *good*
<McEwok> IMHO
<darth_sylar> but a true Sith master wouldn't need Tahiri, he might need an apprentice, but not need to keep Tajiri who has stuck by him.
<Trip> Like /Isard's Revenge,/ which I bring up probably too often
<Trip> but still can't figure out
<Trip> :P
<McEwok> I guess the problem is... who is hero-Jacen? He's not YJK-Jacen, not NJO-Jacen, not even /Traitor/-Jacen...
<Loyal_Imperial> What about it?
<becca> Trip - I think the problem is they try to make the heroes "morally grey" and "real" by having them to a few awkward things and not...really discussing that.
<McEwok> Unless it was an *attempt* to approximate _Traitor_?
<Trip> Bec, probably
<Loyal_Imperial> Heroes are morally grey by nature.
<Trip> But that's what perplexes me
<McEwok> L_I. Nope.
<Trip> Are they just... dim?
<Loyal_Imperial> Star Wars is one big moral grey zone.
<becca> I *love* moral relativism. But I hate the common misconception that moral greyness is people doing morally horrific things and then angsting about them.
<McEwok> Who, DelRey?
<Trip> And writing who they think are heroes?
<McEwok> becca: qft
<Trip> Or are they trying to muddy stuff?
<Trip> It's hard to tell
<Loyal_Imperial> McEwok: Actually, in a way, yes.
<becca> Actually, LI, I agree. But I think that in order to *have* grey, you need dark and light first. The grey exists between.
<Trip> When none of this is ever addressed
<becca> the very notion of morally grey implies that there are areas that are *not* morally grey.
<Trip> Becc, wel said
<Trip> well
<Trip> gah
<McEwok> I think they *tried* to write a sort of liberal hero in NJO-Jacen... and that failed.
<Loyal_Imperial> Bingo.
<becca> thanks :)
<Loyal_Imperial> Light and dark are what people see, grey is what's there.
<McEwok> No, there *are* things that are good and bad.
<Loyal_Imperial> Point of view-wise.
<becca> and then a HUGE amount in between
<McEwok> Teillhard de Chardin was right about that.
<Rohniss> Liberal Hero. ha, an oxymoron if I ever heard one.
<McEwok> Theologically, the Omega Point is questionable; morally, it serves as a key to illustrate "good".
<becca> The fact that *most* of the time, there's no absolute right or wrong, deosn't mean there's *never* an absolute right or wrong. Problem is, we can't ever knwo for sure if it's one of those times or not.
<becca> that's where POV comes in
<McEwok> becca: do you mean "simple" by "absolute"?
<becca> I suppose that'a s good a way of saying it as any?
<Horsey> speaking of POV, I thought this book was all over the place
<whiskers> *lag check*
<becca> I mean...unambiguous
<Kagari> Horsey: Yeah, I did too
<becca> I think I just killed the chat, whiskers - no worries :)
<Horsey> I got a bit confused as to who's POV it was sometimes
<McEwok> Sey: agreed. The question is if the characters were meant to be, I think.
<Horsey> I've not had that happen before in a SW book
<Trip> Horsey, what?
<Loyal_Imperial> I thought it was pretty easy to tell.
<whiskers> becca: It wasn't moving, so i had to check
<McEwok> Oh, you mean actually confusing, not inconsistent!
<Kagari> I did when it was just "" after ""
<Trip> It's Karen! Tight first person is what she does best!
<Kagari> and I had to re-read
<Horsey> eh, both, McE
<becca> whiskers - I know - just taking the rap for killing the chat :)
<McEwok> Inconsistent, I'd give you.
<Horsey> maybe inconsistent is what I mean, I dunno. I just know that I wasn't happy with it
<Trip> Horsey, are you talking about voicing?
<Trip> We were discussing that last ngiht
<Horsey> POV
<Trip> night
<Trip> Yeah, but i mean
<Trip> does the confusion come from voicing?
<Trip> In that all the characters 'sound' alike?
<Trip> There's no distinct voices?
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<Kagari> Yes
<McEwok> The Mandos talk in working-class English accents. Everyone else talks in middle-class English accents (blue collar and white collar for Americans)
<Horsey> hmm
<Kagari> That's the issue I had
<Trip> Because that was what confused me, often
<Horsey> maybe that's why there some confusion then
<Trip> With the POV stuff, I mean
<LosDosMos> I've noticed that too, Trip
<Kagari> It was at times like... am I reading Jacen's or Niathal's line?
<Trip> I can't tell Jacen's thoughts from Niathal's
<McEwok> I thought Tahiri had... fragments... of her character voice.
<Kagari> ugh
<Kagari> lol
<LosDosMos> Everyone seems to have the same rhythm of speech
<Trip> Hah
<Trip> hive mind
<Horsey> yeah
<Trip> LDM, exactly
<whiskers> Kagari: Yeah, that got a little confusing.
<Loyal_Imperial> Entire galaxy at the same time: JACEN IS A SITH!
<Horsey> That could be what I mean, and why I got confused
<McEwok> LDM: as I said, 'cept Tahiri.
<Loyal_Imperial> Definitely a hive mind.
<McEwok> urrrbrrrruuuuuurrrrrru
<Kagari> haha
<becca> I had trouble telling the difference between Jacne and Niathal back in sacrifice
<Trip> Niathal was especially irksome
<LosDosMos> Tahiri's characterization in LotF is just weird, imo
<Trip> since she's alien and all
<Horsey> but I was noticing it with Jaina too
<Trip> Her using human expressions in her thoughts was al whaaa?
<Kagari> lol
<Trip> I never thought I'd say this, but I miss Stackie's hamfisted water methaphors
<Trip> :(
<McEwok> Karen does really good with Niathal's *body-language*
<Trip> :P
<Trip> Hm, she does
<Trip> I'll grant that
<McEwok> Right, I'm out... too late for me.
<Loyal_Imperial> Night, McEwok!
<Trip> Later, McE
<Kagari> later
<LosDosMos> Bye McE!
<Horsey> I also felt some things were redundant in nature as far as phrasing
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<LosDosMos> Naboo? :-P
* McEwok has quit IRC
<Trip> Bloodfin
<Loyal_Imperial> Naboo.
<LordHydronium> Calm oceans to you, Trip.
<Trip> :|
<Horsey> I can't remember what the specific instance that I read was, but it was two phrases that meant the same thing
<Horsey> and yes, Marly, Naboo as well
<Kagari> Naboo -_-
<Loyal_Imperial> The Mustafar mention was a major irritant for me.
<LordHydronium> Traviss' voicing has bugged me ever since Bloodlines.
<Trip> Hydro, may the waves break gently on your shores
* Dunc sets mode: +v Stormrave
<LordHydronium> Everyone sounds identical.
<Loyal_Imperial> It seems to have replaced Tatooine as the planet of choice for heat-based metaphors.
* Dunc changes topic to 'Revelation Chat . .'
<Kagari> LI, so it seems
<LordHydronium> Sometimes it works; for example, I buy Mara with the Traviss voice.
<Horsey> I should've marked that page
<Trip> At least nothing'll ever steal Hoth's place
<Horsey> I knew I'd forget
<Loyal_Imperial> Yet.
<LordHydronium> Sometimes, like with Leia, it really really doesn't.
<becca> and i buy ben with traviss voice
<Loyal_Imperial> Until the TV series.
<Loyal_Imperial> Where there'll be a planet colder than Hoth.
<Trip> You make me sad
<Loyal_Imperial> Apologies.
<Trip> Well, Hoth'll always have a speshul place in my heart
<becca> Hoth is for Lovers
<becca> It's like Vermont
<LordHydronium> There's a bit in Sacrifice where Mara talks with Leia, and I swear I couldn't tell the difference.
<LordHydronium> "Dry, sarcastic British-sounding line." "Dry, sarcastic British-sounding response."
<Kagari> lol
<Kagari> So true
<Trip> x2
<Trip> Okay, Sith
* becca is proud that she must sound inherently sarcastic!
<Loyal_Imperial> Bloodfin = Pelly Jr.?
<Trip> Because I gotta ask
<Kagari> shoot
<Loyal_Imperial> Shoot.
<Trip> What the hell are the LotF people on about Sith?
<Loyal_Imperial> ?
<Loyal_Imperial> Elaborate, please.
<Horsey> they all know
<Kagari> :X
<Kagari> well um
<Trip> Since when do people get super-cool battle meditation after leveling up?
<Loyal_Imperial> No clue.
<Trip> I could buy it being Lumie's thing
<Loyal_Imperial> Kaan reference?
<Trip> or whatever
<becca> since Sacrifice, Trip. Weren't you paying attention?
<Trip> But when Luke used it to explain what a Sith was?
<Trip> WTF????
<Loyal_Imperial> Maybe we finally got Vader = tactical genius.
<Kagari> The battle meditation is admittedly awesome
<LosDosMos> He got enough XP points by killing Mara to choose a new power from the list
<Trip> Karen, hon, there's a new book that just came out!
<Trip> It has pictures, too!
<Loyal_Imperial> EGttF.
<Trip> Yep
<RF> But is it in the Holocron?
<Loyal_Imperial> Don't think she's read it.
<Trip> I was just floored when Niathal goes, "do Sith have any special powers?"
<whiskers> She says she doesn't read fiction. And, sometimes, it shows.
<Kagari> Speaking of Sith... the whole way the entire thing of people asking Jacen if he was one... was just awkward to me
<LordHydronium> LEVEL UP XD
<Trip> And Luke's like, "well, not really. I mean, they do get this super special battle meditation"
<Trip> Really, Luke?
<Trip> REALLY??????
<Kagari> hahaha
<Kagari> yeah, that was lame
<RF> Wait, what?
<Horsey> lol
<LordHydronium> It comes with their prestige class.
<RF> He really says that?
<Loyal_Imperial> Yes.
<Trip> RF, yes
<RF>
<head_desk>
<RF> :|
<Kagari> yes
<Trip> right after he explains what a Sith is
<RF> Jeeez.
<Trip> /in mandie terms/
<LordHydronium> At level 19, they also get Force Crush.
<RF> What?
<Loyal_Imperial> Doesn't Niathal mention something about Palpatine and Vader being Sith?
<Trip> I Swear I Am Not Making This Up
<becca> yeah...like JACEN had no idea he was going to get battle meditation - Lumiya had to tell him
<RF> I haven't read it.
<LordHydronium> Wait, Trip, WHAT?
<Loyal_Imperial> Yes.
<Loyal_Imperial> Is true.
<RF> Tell me more.
<Trip> I Swear I Am Not Making This Up
<becca> i know luke knows more...but that's weird.
<Loyal_Imperial> He Is Not Making This Up.
<LordHydronium> I need further information.
<Trip> Luke: Do you know what a Sith is?
<RF> What do you mean Mandie terms?
<Kagari> NO CONSISTENCY, WHEW
<Trip> Niathal: Not really
<LordHydronium> I want to know just how hard I should slam my head into my desk.
<Trip> Luke: Well, they're force-users who like the Dark Side better
<Trip> Niathal: Oh, so like a fallen Jedi
<Kagari> lolol
<Trip> Luke: Heh, well, it's funny that's what the Mandies call them...
<Trip> Again,
<RF> ....
<Trip> I Swear I Am Not Making This Up
<RF> :|
<Loyal_Imperial> Head, meet desk.
<Loyal_Imperial> Desk, meet head.
<Kagari> It is in there
<LordHydronium> Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.
<Loyal_Imperial> Yeeeeeeeeeeeeees.
<RF> <head_desk>
<LordHydronium> Does he say anything about Mando'a? Please say no.
<Trip> yeah
<Loyal_Imperial> Yes.
<LordHydronium> Well, fuck.
<whiskers> I rolled my eyes at that point.
<becca> hang on
<Kagari> Yeah...............
<Loyal_Imperial> What page was it, Trip?
<becca> LUKE says something in MANO'A?!
<becca> WHY?
<Trip> No, he doesn't speak Mando'a
<becca> Oh, thank god
<Trip> he just talks abou "their language'
<Trip> LI, I dunno
<becca> why does luke know or care about them?
<Trip> chapter... 2?
<becca> gah
<Trip> 3?
<Loyal_Imperial> I'm just looking for the exact phrase.
<LordHydronium> Because they're Mandos.
<LordHydronium> Everyone cares about them.
<Trip> Becca, because they've been the Jedi's biggest enemies for like forever!
<becca> That's true
<LordHydronium> They're as important as the Jedi and Sith, you know.
<Kagari> Luke in this book was... out of character total
<Trip> Remember, it's Jedi, Sith, and Mandies!
<Dunc> Clearly, he and Ben were bonding over the GFFA version of the Discovery Channel just before LOTF started.
<becca> I care about them too. I just forgot for a second.
<becca> Dunc - good point.
<LordHydronium> Like, remember when a Mandalorian overthrew the galactic government?
<Trip> Bec, you don't remember when she had Vergere say that?
<Horsey> also, when Luke talks battle meditation, he's not talking about the Sith, he's talking about Jacen
<Loyal_Imperial> Got it!
<LordHydronium> No? Well...we need to fix that.
<Loyal_Imperial> I'll quote,
<whiskers> Dunc: Thus how Ben knows about Mandalorian coming of age.
<Horsey> pg 46
<becca> Trip - either the author, or I, appear to be suffering from selective amnesia.
<becca> I think I prefer it if I am.
<Loyal_Imperial> Luke: "Do you know what I mean by a Sith?"
<Dunc> Tada. My retcon for the week.
<Trip> No, I mean
<Loyal_Imperial> Niathal: "I've heard the term. But I know nothing about them."
<Kagari> :|
<Trip> Traviss actually had Vergere say that Mandies are equal adversaries to Jedi & Sith
<Kagari> :|
* Dunc snorts
<Loyal_Imperial> Luke: "They're Force-users who prefer the dark side. Like Palpatine."
<Loyal_Imperial> Niathal: "Oh...I see. Fallen Jedi."
<Dunc> The Mandies are not Voldemort to the Jedi
<becca> Trip...what are you talking about?
<Dunc> 's Harry Potter.
<LordHydronium> becca: A Practical Man.
<Dunc> They're not even Draco malfoy.
<Trip> Hang on, I'll let LI finish
<RF> Whaaaaa
<Loyal_Imperial> Luke: "Oddly, that's just what the Mandalorians call them."
<becca> Oh god...I haven't read that.
<Loyal_Imperial> Luke: "Their word means ex-Jedi, although that's not always the case."
<Trip> lulz, Luke talks like Charles now
* Dunc sighs.
<Kagari> D:
<Trip> Oddly...
<Trip> :P
<Loyal_Imperial> Not done yet.
<Kagari> Luke is getting too old
<Loyal_Imperial> Niathal: "And does this make any difference to how we approach him?"
<Loyal_Imperial> Niathal: "Does he have any different powers from regular Jedi?"
<Loyal_Imperial> And then Luke goes on to say not except for his battle meditation.
<LordHydronium> Not unless he has 10,000 XP. If so...god help us.
<Loyal_Imperial> That's the convo.
<LordHydronium> "What if he multiclasses? Does he incur a penalty in his to-hit bonus?"
<Trip> And here's the Vergere bit from APM, bec
<Trip> prepare to cry
<Horsey> eep!
<becca> OMG, Hydro! If he has 10,000 XP, we'd better go hire ourselves a Mandalorian! Oh, wait, it's all right, Jaina's got that one covered.
<Horsey> my show is back on!
* becca prepares herself
<Trip> "Warmaster, we think too oft en in terms of dualism: Jedi or Sith, light or dark, right or wrong. But there are three sides to this blade, not two, opposed and similar at the same time. The third edge is the Mandalorian. All three sides care nothing for caste or species, only adherence to a code that unites. The Mandalorians remain the most formidable enemy of the Jedi: but the Sith are not always their allies. The Mandalorians even worshipped war itself, then simply turned their backs on their god. You might begin to understand them one day.
<Trip> -Vergere, explaining galactic politics to the Yuuzhan Vong shortly before their invasion of the galaxy, 25 A.B.Y."
<Dunc> Wow.
<Kagari> -_-
<Kagari> what.
<Horsey> yeah I don't like those little things at the beginning of the chapters
<becca> ...
<Kagari> what book is that
<whiskers> Dear Lord...
<Loyal_Imperial> ....
<becca> so hang on
<Trip> A Practical Man
<becca> the mandos are the most formidable jedi enemies *including* the sith?
<becca> I...
<Kagari> gah
<RF> WHAT THE FUCK
<Trip> e-book
<becca> YOu know, I dno't even LIKE Jedi Supremacy that much
<becca> I don't WANT them to be the bestest boy scouts in the world
<Loyal_Imperial> Me neither.
<Loyal_Imperial> And yet....
<becca> but that's just SILLY
<Loyal_Imperial> Exactly.
<becca> SILLY I SAY
<Darklighter> fett and daala have a similar viewpoint...
<LordHydronium> Haven't you listened to the Fandos? It's either Jedi or Mandalorians. :P
<Trip> Also silly is Vergere advising the Vong
<Trip> back when she's still a pet
<Darklighter> on the jedi supremacy issue, that is
* Loyal_Imperial sighs
<Trip> But that's minor, comparatively...
<Dunc> Trip: Wasn't that her whole point?
<becca> Trip - true, though I can see her as having special status: like those prophecying dwarves in ancient egypt
<Loyal_Imperial> That conversation was painful just to type.
<Kagari> lol
<LordHydronium> Prophesying dwarves? Intriguing.
<Trip> Dunc, vergere's? Yeah
<Trip> That she was a little pet-thing
<becca> Yeah, in ancient egypt women in labour used to recite a prayer to some god praying that their kid would be a dwarf
<becca> cos then they'd get a great life in the pharoah's court
<LordHydronium> o_O
<Dunc> No, but part of that was because of what she knew about the galaxy they were invading?
<Trip> Well, I can't see the ancient egyptians asking the dwarves for political advice
<LordHydronium> Dwarves and cats. The Egyptians were an interesting people.
<Trip> or anthropological insights
<becca> apparently they had a talent for prophecy, so every now and again, they'd like, show up and makes some crap up, then go back to banging egyptian hookers or something
<Loyal_Imperial> Indeed they were.
<Trip> I'm just saying. :P
<becca> They would - jsut in the form of prophecy ;)
* becca will stop the tangent now
<Trip> Fair enough. :P
<Loyal_Imperial> "Remember to answer the question in the form of a prophecy."
<becca> HAHA
<becca> Prophetic Jeopardy!
<whiskers> LOL
<Trip> So, while we're talking Sith
<becca> Point is, though, in my head, Vergere's just trying to throw the Vong off by giving them bad intelligence
<Loyal_Imperial> Wait, I've got to save that.
<LordHydronium> I like it.
<Trip> Does anyone else not buy the traviss-aplogist line that ordinary people would have no reason to know what a Sith is?
<Horsey> nice, bec
<Trip> Bec, yeah, best interpretation
<Dunc> Trip: Not really.
<LordHydronium> Sorta like how Beviin doesn't know jack about the Clone Wars.
<becca> Like - THE MANDOS! FEAR THE MANDOS! So that they'll waste their resources fighting some tiny one-planet group
<LordHydronium> And the clones in Odds are just stupid.
<Dunc> I mean, I could understand like kids Ben;'s age.
<Darklighter> define ordinary people
<becca> Actually I dno't mind people not really knowing what Sith are
<Dunc> But Niathal?
<becca> that doesn't bother me at all
<whiskers> They'd know in some way. Would they care? No.
<Trip> I mean, it's not like the Sith were squashing the galaxy for a thousand years or anything
<becca> They'd know the name, but probably not much more than that
<Horsey> I don't mind people not knowing what a Sith is
<Trip> I'm sure their schools focus on more important stuff
<becca> Niathal should maybe know a little more, but...eh.
<becca> at best I think they'd understand Force-Using Bad Guy
<Horsey> Dark Jedi, they can know about, but the last Sith was killed how many years ago?
<Loyal_Imperial> 11 ABY?
<Loyal_Imperial> 4 ABY?
<Loyal_Imperial> Depends.
<becca> and NIathal may just have been showing deference to the fact she was well-aware she was under informed
<Loyal_Imperial> First or second death of Palps.
<Loyal_Imperial> 40 ABY for Lummi.
<LordHydronium> Last public Sith was killed 4 ABY.
<Kagari> :X
<becca> like, "I've heard the term," might mean, "yeah I know they're crazy evil wizards, but not much more, so, help?"
<Horsey> yeah but no one knew Lummi
<Horsey> I meant known Sith, Vader
<LordHydronium> Last Sith before him, 990 BBY.
<Loyal_Imperial> 4 ABY, then.
<Darklighter> mandos have a history with the sith - they should know. mon cals don't, so...
<Loyal_Imperial> 32 BBY too.
<Loyal_Imperial> Maul.
<Loyal_Imperial> 19 BBY for Dooku.
<Trip> Yeah, I guess y'all are right, more or less
<becca> Plus with Vader, I don't get the impression that he was that public about what his religion meant
<LordHydronium> Oh right, the PT Sith. D'oh. :S
<Horsey> agreed, I bet more people saw him as a Dark Jedi
<becca> I mean, he had a title that most people probably reeled off like, "Duke of Cornwall" or something
<Loyal_Imperial> Apparently Maul is common knowledge now too.
<Trip> although the people in Revelation are totally clueless: they don't even know a Sith is a darksider
<Loyal_Imperial> The mention of nobody trying to redeem the "Sith apprentice on Naboo" or whatever they called him.
<Horsey> I don't see why they would know
<Loyal_Imperial> Ben's point of view, I believe.
<Trip> Well, Horsey, when they toss around insults like "Sithspawn!" and "Sithspit!"...
<Trip> :P
<Trip> To be fair, Abel did provide an explanation for that...
<LordHydronium> Yeah...I forgot about that. :P
<Horsey> bah
<becca> what explanation?
<LordHydronium> Though I'm sure people use profanities whose origins they don't know nowadays.
<Horsey> that's like ghost stories though
<Trip> It has something to do with "Sith" being a word in Olys Corellysi
<Horsey> right
<Trip> or something
<Trip> Something unrelated to Sith-sith
<Trip> just a cognate
<Trip> it was typically clever
<LordHydronium> "Sith" means "since" in archaic Modern English.
<becca> cool
<LordHydronium> Was it that?
<Loyal_Imperial> LordHydronium: They certainly do.
<becca> but then again, as hydro said, people aren't etymologically educatorized these days ;(
<Kagari> I totally loled when Jacen was explaining he was a Sith to Shevu and said something along the lines of "Do you know what a Sith is" We're Force-users."
<Loyal_Imperial> Could refer to the species, too.
<becca> And it also still plays into the "ah, it's a bad name for some bad group of people," without really knowing much mroe than that.
<Trip> But yeah, you guys are probably right
<Kagari> ?*
<Trip> About people not knowing/caring
<becca> I'm going to start using phrases like, "You son of a Hun!"
<Loyal_Imperial> Or...
<Loyal_Imperial> You Athenian!
<Havac> It's like calling someone a fascist. Do any of the people throwing the word around really know what it means?
<Darklighter> a lot don't
<Trip> Although the nonsensical way in which Jacen's sith-ness was revealed without being revealed... that, eh
<Trip> That's BS
<LordHydronium> Sumerianspawn!
<becca> You cursed Visigoth! I'll teach you to sack major cities!
<Kagari> Trip, yes
<Loyal_Imperial> The Gaul of him!
<Kagari> I agree
<LordHydronium> Red flag on LI for excessive punning. :P
<becca> I'm really really disappointed that we don't find out about people's reactions to Allana
<sabarte> "barbarian" is still in use
<Horsey> what haven't we talked about yet?
<becca> is it something Leia and Han are keeping close to their chests?
<Horsey> (I don't actually want to discuss the Mando plot)
<becca> or is it common knowledge now?
<Trip> everyone knowing Jacen's a sith?
<Loyal_Imperial> LordHydronium: My specialty.
<Trip> Horsey?
<whiskers> I'm disappointed that she wasn't mentioned more.
<Darklighter> or it's all off-screen
<Trip> Or Allana?
<LordHydronium> Continuity? XD
<Kagari> LUL
<becca> Yeah - since it'll be a few days before I get my copy, I'm well up for spoiling myself rotten about how much allana won't be in it?
<Horsey> why did you say my name?
<Dunc> Fenn Shysa?
<Jello> ...
<Horsey> Allana was mentioned by Jacen and Ben overheard Leia say her name to someone
<Dunc> I don't get the big deal there
<Trip> Horsey, I was asking which you were asking about not having been discussed
<Jello> I like the previous line of discussion.
<Loyal_Imperial> Which one?
<Jello> I'm going to start using those terms as insults.
<Horsey> I was trying to pull us back to Revelation
<Jello> "Son of a Hun" etc
<becca> oh. :( I hope we get reactions in Invincible then. :)
<Loyal_Imperial> "He's such a Jute!"
* Jello goes back to doing other things
<Trip> crazy sullustian
<Horsey> lol
<Jello> >:(
<Trip> Kedyada mookyada wah, huh?
<Horsey> Bec it looks like it wasn't mentioned that Allana is jacen's daughter
<Kagari> I am concerned with how Invincible is going to wrap things up after Revelation :/
<Loyal_Imperial> "They act like Vandals!"
<Horsey> and I'd guess she's back with Tenel Ka, but that wasn't really mentioned either
<becca> oh. well...idsappointing but I can imagine Liea and Han not wanting to talk about that at the moment
<becca> but I REALLY would have liked to see that conversation between Han, Leia and TK
<Horsey> agreed
<Darklighter> they don't get a whole lot of screen time, either
<Trip> Han & Leia aren't really in it
<LordHydronium> Fortunately there definitely will be coverage of that in Invincible.
<becca> cus wow, that'd be awkward!
<Trip> Er, speaking of Han
<Trip> "I just stood around like a jerk, and he ambushed me."
<whiskers> Is Han even IN the book? Actually, I think I did see him.
<Kagari> Barely
<Horsey> he was there at the end with Ben and the evidence
<Trip> Does that mean something in British, or am I just stupid?
<whiskers> I know, that was a joke.
<whiskers> :P
<Dunc> he's mentioned a lot
<Horsey> gah
<Horsey> use a tongue!
<Trip> This is a serious question, incidentally
<Trip> :P
<Trip> well, genuine
<sabarte> test
<Horsey> Trip it seems self explanatory to me
<Horsey> I don't get what you're asking
<becca> Um, I'm not aware of that meaning anything in british except...han stood around like a jerk and then got ambushed by osmeone?
<Trip> "Stood around like a jerk"
<LordHydronium> What event is he referring to?
<Loyal_Imperial> All of them?
<Horsey> getting captured by Fett
<Loyal_Imperial> Any of them?
<Trip> Jerk, I mean
<Trip> IE, is he being self-depreciating?
<Havac> Yeah.
<Loyal_Imperial> Yep.
<Loyal_Imperial> Hanhumor.
<Trip> I've just never seen "jerk" used as a stand-in for "idiot" or whatever
<becca> Trip: Jerk = idiot
<becca> asshole
<becca> something liek that
<becca> I didn't think it was british, though
<Kagari> no?
<LordHydronium> Nah, I've seen "jerk" used in that sense in American TV. That's not how I use it, though.
<LordHydronium> I've only used it myself in the sense of being mean.
<Trip> I mean, "jerk" for me is always like, "dick"
<Trip> not "idiot"
<LordHydronium> Yeah, that.
<Trip> thus the confusion
<Kagari> Hmm
<Trip> not a big deal
<Loyal_Imperial> Aha!
<Loyal_Imperial> "Selonian!"
<Kagari> Yeah
<Kagari> I agree
<LordHydronium> However, I have heard it before like that, Trip.
<becca> But dick can = idiot too. I think it's just self-deprecating humour
<LordHydronium> LI: What are you, Corran? :P
<Loyal_Imperial> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selonians
<Loyal_Imperial> Selonian.
* Horsey growls
<Trip> lulz
<Loyal_Imperial> Didn't expect to stumble across that.
<Trip> LI, that's amusing
<Loyal_Imperial> Indeed it is.
<Trip> So, is there any reason for me to press on?
<Trip> With Revelation?
<Horsey> yeah
<Loyal_Imperial> Spawn of Daala?
<Kobe> bbl
<Horsey> read the Fondor thing
<becca> the hilarious lulz of the CORPSENAPPING?
<becca> or did you reach that?
<LordHydronium> Bah, I'm going to have to read this for completeness's sake. :(
<Trip> No, I'm on like chapter three
<Trip> four
<Trip> rather
<Loyal_Imperial> Read to the end.
<Trip> and did a little jumping around
<Loyal_Imperial> Fondor isn't bad.
<Horsey> skip past all that to get to the Fondor thing
<Kagari> ;o
* becca doens't know - she's still waiting to get a copy
<Loyal_Imperial> The Bloodfin thing is hilarious.
<Horsey> then stop immediately afterwards
<Trip> It's just painful
<Trip> so far
<Loyal_Imperial> It's specially built for escaping.
<Trip> I got through bloodlines, though!
<Horsey> you gotta read Pelly's death scene
<Loyal_Imperial> And running away.
<Kagari> I wanted to skip all the Mando parts
<Kagari> :X
<Trip> Okay, I'll do Fondor, then
<Trip> Anything else I should skip to?
<Loyal_Imperial> Uh...
<Horsey> Kagari you'd've skipped most of the book
<Loyal_Imperial> Fondor.
<Trip> :P
<Loyal_Imperial> That's about it.
<Loyal_Imperial> Oh.
<Loyal_Imperial> And Ben.
<Kagari> Horsey, I know XD
<Loyal_Imperial> On Endor.
<Kagari> But I read it anyway
<Horsey> I'd say read the epilogue, but you hate Luke
<Loyal_Imperial> That's worth reading.
<Trip> Ben on Endor, okay
<Trip> I can stomach that
<Kagari> Read the Jacen confession
<Loyal_Imperial> If only for the storyline advancement.
<LordHydronium> Skip to the part where Invincible starts. :P
<Kagari> for the lulz
<LordHydronium> Or in your case, skip to Legacy 1.
<Kagari> lol