Legacy of the Force: Betrayal Chat

Tuesday, May 30th, 2006 / #eu on irc.holonet.org / Hosted by starwars_eu

All timestamps Eastern.

19:57 <Crox> I would like to see Stover write the "last adventure of the Big 3" that he's expressed interest in
19:57 <Dunc> I wonder what Stover thinks of the Vergere matter...
19:57 <sithben> I would too, but I personally want the Big 3 to just die offscreen.
19:57 <Crox> It seems like it would be strange though for an offscreen death of such important characters
19:58 <CeiranHarmony> would you prefer another bookseries after lotf or individual books trilogies and duologies not tied into a series? like a zahnbook, a stover book, etc. not a new series? I enjoy both
19:58 <Dunc> The problem is, if they do it onscreen, half the fandom will be all 'that was lame'.
19:58 <sithben> Stover could write there last story but it needs to have a finality to it, so you see it as the end of Luke, Leia and Han's story.
19:58 <Crox> I would like some individual books because they're less of a strain on my budget >_>
19:58 <Dunc> I would perfer going back to the Bantam method - one storyline, one author.
19:58 <Dunc> Although more coordination than Bantam had.
19:58 <Crox> I do like large series though, they just take a while to get through
19:59 <sithben> Exactly. I dont want to see Luke cut down, or Han blown up on the Falcon, and if you are reading a book and Jaina comes in and says "My Uncle Luke just died" that would be even worse.
20:00 <Crox> I'd like to see some more books that take place between ROTS and ANH
20:00 <Crox> After all, Han is really the only of the big 3 that we've gotten a detailed backstory on
20:00 <sithben> I think that if there is another contract after 2008 there will be more novels set between those two periods/
20:01 <sithben> No offense but Luke and Leia are probably rather boring between ROTS and ANH
20:01 <Crox> probably, but you never know
20:01 <Dunc> I'm not really into intertrilogy stuff.
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20:01 <Dunc> Opps.
20:01 * DaEmp has joined #eu
20:01 <Dunc> CHAT OFFICIALLY STARTS... NOW.
20:01 <Dunc> One minute late, my time. :D
20:01 <Crox> I can see it now: "Luke and the Power Convertors" by Barbara Hambly
20:02 <sithben> Lol.
20:02 <Dunc> Power Convertors and I are very happy and we're running away together!
20:02 <CeiranHarmony> how many hours will this chat last?
20:02 <Dunc> Who knows?
20:02 <Dunc> There's no official end time.
20:02 <sithben> so how shall this start?
20:02 <Dunc> It ends when it ends.
20:02 <Crox> He could encounter a clone of Callista at Tosche Station
20:02 <Dunc> Okay, softball question...
20:03 <Dunc> Was anyone else highly amused that we finally got a real look at exactly how famous the heros of the rebellion are?
20:03 <Dunc> Han, Leia, Luke, Wedge...
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20:03 <Lusa> Totally! I loved how it happend with all of them
20:03 <sithben> I loved that. I especially loved how they said that Wedge is the second most famous Corellian of the rebellion :-)
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20:04 <Leslie> I loved the bit about the impersonators
20:04 <McEwok> Well, they seem to be going in for fanservice these days...
20:04 * Dunc changes topic to 'starwars_eu chat - current topic: Was anyone else highly amused that we finally got a real look at exactly how famous the heros of the rebellion are?.'
20:05 <Dunc> I don't know if I'd call it fan service...
20:05 <Lusa> I dunno. I mean, there was that fanfic shoutout, too.
20:05 <Dunc> I think it's just something folks wanted to know, and it was a natural place to bring it in.
20:06 <Dunc> Since we're dealing with Correlians.
20:06 <Dunc> (Okay, yeah, I can't spell)
20:06 <sithben> I wonder what would happen on Corellia if Han ran for Prime Minister?
20:06 <Dunc> And Wedge's came into play with Syal.
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20:08 <Dunc> Han never had much patience for politics, though...
20:08 <Dunc> Even with Leia helping out... I don't see it.
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20:08 <sithben> Me being dense sometimes, didn't even realize Lysa Dunter was Syal Antilles. Even though things she says about her father reminded me of Wedge.
20:08 <DaEmp> better c-3po for prime minister than han...
20:08 <Dunc> I didn't catch it until the big reveal either.
20:09 <Dunc> But I've never read the X-Wing books, so...
20:09 <Leslie> sithben, I'm glad you said that....I had no idea either
20:09 * Dunc changes topic to 'starwars_eu chat - current topic: Lysa Dunter.'
20:09 <Lusa> me either. I even went, "Oh, hey, Lysa and Syal have the same letters" and didnt get it
20:09 <Dunc> Oh, they do!
20:09 <Lusa> I know, right!
20:09 * Dunc is way dense.
20:09 <sithben> I'm a huge X-Wing fan. Thats why i should have caught it. I mean I even caught the Donoslane reference.
20:10 <Leslie> I haven't read the X-Wing books
20:10 <Lusa> REally? I didn't catch that one. When was it?
20:10 <sithben> around page 140.
20:10 <pirate_lass> I thought it was the remark about Jedi pilots that gave it away-- reaching the top of your field and knowing you got there without any crutches
20:10 <sithben> i think when Jaina, Zekk and the Falleen were trying to steal the shuttle.
20:10 <Lusa> Rock. I'll check. Did you catch Shalla's cameo? That made my day
20:11 <sithben> i did thought I had to go back to the X-Wing novels to remember her name.
20:11 * Trip has quit IRC (Client exited.)
20:11 <McEwok> Anyone mentioned Donoslane yet?
20:11 <Dunc> yes, Sithben did.
20:11 <sithben> That was one of my favorite lines. I should have known it came from Wedge.
20:11 <sithben> <---- did.
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20:11 <sithben> I mean Wedge can outfly almost any Jedi anyway.
20:12 <sithben> Go Myn!
20:12 <Dunc> Connection issues, Trip?
20:12 * Rouge77 has joined #eu
20:12 <Dunc> The web interface may be sluggish, with almost everyone using it....
20:12 <sithben> did you guys like Lysa/Syal? I mean as a character. Does she have a future?
20:13 <Dunc> I liked her.
20:13 <Leslie> Did Wedge originally say it in the X-Wing series?
20:13 <Trip> slightly.
20:13 * Crox has quit IRC (Client exited.)
20:13 <Lusa> I think she does. I liked her
20:13 <Dunc> And I generally have little use for random OCs.
20:13 <sithben> At first I didn't. Then I found out she was Syal and things changed.
20:13 <CeiranHarmony> who here could do me a favor :) *waves*
20:13 <Trip> I picked up on her being Syal from the get-go.
20:13 <sithben> No, he didnt say it. It just seems like something he would say. IMO
20:13 <Trip> Not sure how much I like her, though.
20:13 <sithben> what do you need Cieran?
20:14 <Dunc> Don't know if I like her yet, but she was interesting...
20:14 <sithben> I sort of hope she has a future. While I like the Jedi, I feel Star Wars needs characters like Han and Wedge as well.
20:14 <pirate_lass> I like her-- it's nice to get a perspective on things from a fresh pilot who isn't a Jedi
20:14 <Dunc> Yeah, you need a bit of balance.
20:14 <Lusa> I agree. There haven't been nearly enough pilots lately
20:15 <Dunc> And a pilot I can read about, no less...
20:15 <Leslie> I'm not sure if I liked her. I was just interested to see how it would play out with her and Wedge on different sides.
20:15 <Dunc> I didn't skip ANYTHING in this. Almost unheard of for me. :D
20:15 <CeiranHarmony> I need someone who stays for the whole chat and can email me a transcript/chatlog afterwards. I can´t stay all the time, since here in germany it is already 2 hours past midnight
20:15 <Dunc> Ceiran - I'm logging
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20:16 <Dunc> And I'll post it, probably.
20:16 <Trip> I like her choice in fighters-- more interesting than the same old X-wings
20:16 <sithben> Though I wish Jag was around, maybe leading a GA squadron as a rep for the Chiss.
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20:16 * McEwok wakes up
20:16 <McEwok> Agreed on Jag.
20:16 <Dunc> As long as nothing goes horribly wrong.
20:16 <CeiranHarmony> ceiranharmony@aol.com please email me the complete thing then.. thx, and let me know in the header what it is^^
20:16 <McEwok> Though I suspect he'd be Corellian.
20:16 <Lusa> I dunno. I thought it was nice that other characters got some action
20:16 <pirate_lass> sorry, what was that about Jag?
20:17 <Dunc> Ceiran, are you in starwars_eu or from TFN?
20:17 <Lusa> Although I could go for some more RAynar, personally, but thats just me
20:17 <Dunc> I don't think we have to worry about Jag not showing up.
20:17 <CeiranHarmony> I am at TFN and at njoe.com
20:17 <Trip> I can't see Fel joining with a separatist group, regardless of his father's origins
20:17 <McEwok> No?
20:17 <Dunc> Okay, when I post it, I'll link at the TFN thread.
20:17 <CeiranHarmony> thx
20:17 <McEwok> Not after DN3, Trip?
20:17 <McEwok> Trip - you're 000, right?
20:18 <sithben> I think the reason Jag isn't this book at least is because of the whole Jaina/Zekk thing.
20:18 <McEwok> Jaina/Zekk thing?
20:18 <Dunc> I dunno, they're being kinda slippery on Jaina and Zekk.
20:18 <McEwok> I saw nothing except Han's twitchy prejudice...
20:18 <Lusa> There was, like, none. I was bummed
20:18 <sithben> Zekk following her around like a lost puppy.
20:18 * Dunc changes topic to 'starwars_eu chat - current topic: Jaina and her harem.'
20:18 <Lusa> And the fact that Allston made him, like, peppy, which bugged me
20:18 <pirate_lass> at least there's no Kyp
20:19 <Dunc> I kinda liked Zekk.
20:19 <Dunc> Weird.
20:19 <Leslie> I couldn't stand Zekk in this book
20:19 <sithben> True, and unless Traviss writes him, we wont see Kyp at all.
20:19 <Dunc> What was it you said about them, McEwok?
20:19 <Lusa> I usually adore him, but I thought he could have been handled better. His characterization seemed off to me
20:19 <McEwok> Zekk = Chewie
20:19 <Dunc> hehe
20:19 <pirate_lass> Denning might throw a cameo in, just to have him all dirty and crusty and gross
20:19 <Lusa> Plus that fact that he said Zekk was younger than Jaina. Someone didnt do his homework!
20:19 <DaEmp> if zekk = chewie, will a moon fall on him?
20:19 <sithben> I would rather Zekk just growl like Chewie did then
20:19 <McEwok> Zekk still has an individual identity?
20:20 <McEwok> Did he actually say Zekk was younger, or was Han counting in Corellian years?
20:20 <Dunc> Hey now, let's not put characterizations in anyone's book prematurely, now.
20:20 <sithben> Denning will only write Kyp to kill him. IMO
20:20 <Lusa> haha! crusty space kyp! pirate_lass, you = <3 for that!
20:20 <Leslie> Zekk had some funny one-liners, but he had no personality IMO
20:20 <Dunc> I liked Kyp better in the NJO than I ever did in Bantam.
20:21 <sithben> He never has. I havent read the YJK. But he was boring in the NJO and I wanted to shoot Jainaekk in DN.
20:21 <Dunc> And I knew it was a total 180, I just didn't care.
20:21 <McEwok> Zekk's personality disappeared under his neuroses when he became a Jedi.
20:21 <sithben> I liked Kyp towards the end of the NJO.
20:21 <Leslie> Agreed, Dunc
20:21 <McEwok> Kinda like Jacen...
20:21 <Dunc> Same with Zekk. Never had much use for him before, but I found him kind of endearing here.
20:21 <sithben> I actually only liked Jacen in Traitor, and in the Dark Nest.
20:22 * Trip has quit IRC (Client exited.)
20:22 <Dunc> Zekk has spent the years between DN and Betrayal in therapy, obviously.
20:22 <sithben> He should have taken Jacen with him.
20:23 <Lusa> Like Raynar, who appears to be locked in abasement in the Temple?
20:23 <McEwok> I think it's his selfconfidence...
20:23 <Lusa> that bugged me
20:23 <McEwok> Bugged?
20:23 <McEwok> :-p
20:23 <sithben> Raynar is locked up next to Depa...
20:23 <Dunc> Raynar is the Jedi Order's crazy wife in the attic...
20:23 <McEwok> But is Raynar Raynar?
20:23 <McEwok> Zekk was always insecure...
20:23 <pirate_lass> he can't still be Unu, can he?
20:23 <sithben> Maybe Raynar now is another clone of Palps?
20:23 <sithben> Lol.
20:24 <Dunc> Haven't we had enough clones?
20:24 <sithben> Sorry.
20:24 <Lusa> Crazy angsty Raynar could be so awesome though
20:24 <McEwok> No, I mean, was UnuThul, oh, never mind...
20:24 <sithben> I was making a bad joke.
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20:25 <McEwok> I know - I was answering pirate_lass
20:25 <pirate_lass> there ought to be another Clone War. except with all the crazy clones of Palps vs. crazy clones of... other people
20:25 <Dunc> Oye.
20:25 <sithben> Vergere =Sith wannabe? Or is Lumiya manipulating Jacen?
20:25 <McEwok> Vey.
20:25 <Dunc> Sounds like a fabulous idea for crackfic...
20:26 <Lusa> I dunno. I could see her as a Sith, but Lumiya was totally manipulating Jacen at teh same time
20:26 <Dunc> (Clone War 2.0, not Vergere)
20:26 * Dunc changes topic to 'starwars_eu chat - current topic: Vergere and the Sith.'
20:26 <pirate_lass> ... I may crackfic something like that, just to feature the microscopic piloting genius children of Jaina and Jag. who will likely never exist.
20:26 <Dunc> I think Lumiya was lying out her ass..
20:27 <Dunc> I think Vergere may have done some Sith-looking, but I don't think she was a Sith entirely.
20:27 <Dunc> Maybe she mismashed the Jedi, the Sith, and the Potentium, and came up with... Vong-Potentium.
20:27 <sithben> I am not sure actually. I can see why Lumiya would lie, and I know she would to "win". But Vergere's beliefs sound very Sith like to me, in fact things she says sounds like things I have read Sidious saying.
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20:28 <Lusa> Yeah, I agree
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20:28 <Trip> Been having techincal issues
20:28 <Dunc> Whatever Vergere was feeding Jacen, it wasn't pure Jedi/Sith.
20:28 <Trip> But yeah, this is 000 from TFN
20:28 <sithben> I don't think she was full Sith either. But I think like Lumiya she might follow Sith teachings.
20:28 <McEwok> Does it matter?
20:29 <Trip> How would Lumiya have had any contact with Vergere to know what she tells jacen?
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20:29 <Lusa> Good question
20:29 <Lusa> Maybe they were, like, penpals or something while Vergere was off with the Vong
20:29 <McEwok> Vergere left "to find her people" between Hero's Trial and SbS
20:29 <sithben> My feeling is that Vergere might have studied the Sith but by the time she mentored Jacen she followed her own code.
20:30 <sithben> So to speak.
20:30 <Trip> Heh, they met through a "collaborators with Extragalactic aliens" meeting
20:30 <Trip> McEwok: Oh, yeah, forgot about that.
20:30 <Dunc> How would Vergere know how to find Lumiya? How would she know she existed?
20:30 * CeiranHarmony watches and smiles..will comment later
20:30 <Dunc> Shira wasn't born when Vergere left, and it's a big galaxy.
20:31 <Trip> Yeah, that's what I have an issue with
20:31 <sithben> Not sure, but maybe Vergere was able to sense Lumiya, or vice versa.
20:31 <Lusa> Or she could just have knonw she trained Jace and madr it all up to get him to listen
20:31 <DaEmp> maybe the sith have decades-old mail drops.
20:31 <Dunc> In a big, choatic galaxy with 100+ force users?
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20:31 <McEwok> Vergere showe up around the same time at Yaga Minor...
20:32 <Dunc> Maybe Vergere flowwalked...
20:32 <sithben> Thats one piece of evidence that points me to believe she is lying.
20:32 <McEwok> Lumiya did, I mean...
20:32 * Dunc changes topic to 'starwars_eu chat - current topic: Vergere, Lumiya and the Sith.'
20:32 <McEwok> What I *really* want to know is what Tremayne and the Imperial Inquisition are up to...
20:32 <sithben> We do know Lumiya was running around the galaxy during the Vong crisis.
20:33 <Trip> Alright, what was Lumiya going on about her being unable to be truly Sith due to her prosthetics?
20:33 <Dunc> I'm not familiar with them, Ewok. Is that from Crimson Empire?
20:33 <Lusa> I had actually heard Lucas saying the same thing about Anakin
20:33 <McEwok> Dunc, no...
20:33 <Trip> Old RPG books
20:33 <McEwok> Yep
20:33 <sithben> It's the same reason Vader cant be fully Sith either.
20:33 <Trip> and the new Evasive Action webstrip
20:33 <Lusa> how he lost some of his power cause the mediclorians were in his cells, and those sort of got chopped off
20:33 <McEwok> And the TOS Webcomic
20:34 <sithben> Not enough body parts, too much mechanical.
20:34 <Trip> Dark Lord and other sources have knocked that down, though
20:34 <Trip> through the POV of Palpatine himself
20:34 <sithben> Sidious= Greatest manipulater in GFFA's history.
20:34 <McEwok> Oh?
20:34 <Dunc> Maybe over time, it became more obvious?
20:34 <Trip> Vader just has post-suit problems because of depression and other issues
20:34 <Dunc> As Vader became less... raged?
20:35 <McEwok> I got the idea from the end of RotS that Palpatine *wanted* suit!Vader...
20:35 <Trip> Sidious was thinking to himself though in those passages-- so there was no reason for him to lie
20:35 <McEwok> Palpatine sees the suit as the inevitable result of Vader/Luke/Solobrat behaviour...
20:36 <Dunc> I think Palpatine was originally planning to use Anakin as his golden hero, savior of the galxy...
20:36 <sithben> I am not trying to say that Vader wasnt powerful. And he was a Sith apprentice. But I dont feel he could call completly on all of the Sith knowledge that Sidious could.
20:36 <Trip> Naw... he took advantage of a bad situation and turned it into a bonus, but he planned for the standard "Sith Master killed by better apprentice" thing
20:36 <Lusa> Yeah, I get what youre saying
20:36 <Dunc> But the suit certainly made him less of a threat...
20:36 <Trip> It did, but it didn't diminish his force potential
20:36 <Trip> At least, not so far as Palpatine could tell
20:37 <sithben> The suit is why Vader wanted Luke. Luke if fully trained in the darkside with Vader at his side could have taken Sidious.
20:37 <McEwok> The suit is a "jewel-box" for "the greatest treasure of the Sith" - RotS novel.
20:37 <Dunc> The galaxyy loved Palpatine, and it loved Anakin...
20:37 <Dunc> Vader and Melty!Palpy were the first crack in that facade...
20:37 <Suzuki_Akira> Agreed.
20:37 <McEwok> Were they, or were they the apotheosis of Palpatine's plan?
20:38 <DaEmp> because, after all, our heroes shouldn't be *ugly*...
20:38 <Trip> Yeah I agree, both Palpatine's disfigurements and Anakin's burning were unanticipated
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20:38 <McEwok> The truth is ugly...
20:38 <sithben> Palpatine was definitely surprised by his disfigurement. It says so in the ROTS novel.
20:38 <McEwok> How clearly?
20:38 <Suzuki_Akira> Oh McEwok, don't you pull that card
20:39 <McEwok> He may not expect it, but he seems cool with it.
20:39 <McEwok> "The mask becomes the man", and all that.
20:39 <Trip> you're right, he's outwardly fine with it
20:39 <Dunc> Palptine didn't get where he was without being able to turn on a dime.
20:39 <sithben> I didnt say he had a problem with it. He even came up with a plan to use it for his benefit.
20:39 <Trip> Palpatine's career was made by making the most of poor situations
20:39 <Trip> but it wasn't planned or expected
20:39 <Suzuki_Akira> I'm not sure.
20:40 <McEwok> Maybe not - but it *is* _poetic_.
20:40 <Lusa> But back to Betrayal... :p
20:40 <Trip> My bad.
20:40 <Suzuki_Akira> Sometimes I think that he anticipates almost everything.
20:40 <sithben> See how quickly us EU fans can move away from a topic.
20:40 <Lusa> Shame, shame
20:40 <McEwok> I think Palpatine appreciates the sense of what happens in RotS, to him and Vader...
20:40 <McEwok> ... Jacen, however, doesn't.
20:40 <Dunc> Okay... Did anyone find Jacen's use of foresight disturbing?
20:40 <Trip> But anyhow, what is Lumiya's Sith status?
20:40 <McEwok> Jacen thinks he can "be the man Vader wasn't".
20:40 <sithben> At that point Sidious pretty much could see the future. It's only around ROTJ that he loses the ability.
20:41 <Lusa> Yeah, I did. How he killed that chick just cause of a vision
20:41 <McEwok> Which is exactly how Vader became Vader...
20:41 <Dunc> I think Lumiya may be a full-fledged Sith, in her own mind.
20:41 <sithben> Lumiya is someone with Sith training, but she isnt a Sith such as Palps or Vader.
20:41 <Lusa> Who else is freaking out that he's gonna pull a Vader and kill TK?
20:41 <Dunc> Look how she was manipulating the situstion? That's v. Palpatine.
20:41 <McEwok> She's called "Dark Lady" in the Tempest blurb...
20:41 <Dunc> I don't think he'll kill TK.
20:41 <McEwok> Of course he will.
20:41 <Lusa> I think he's gonna try to train Allana, though
20:41 <Trip> I'm asking because she claims not to be and to never be able to achieve mastery, while other sources put her as reigning dark lord (lady) from Byss on
20:42 <Lusa> cause he can't train Ben
20:42 <sithben> But for right now she is the closest thing to a Sith in the galaxy.
20:42 <Trip> So is she BSing Jacen, or what?
20:42 <Suzuki_Akira> What I found more disturbing than Jacen going forward in the future was him going backward
20:42 <Dunc> Killing TK would put Hapes into chaos.
20:42 <Suzuki_Akira> this flowwalking thing is so paradoxical
20:42 <Dunc> The only heir is a four year old.
20:42 <sithben> I think she gave it away when she said "I've Won"
20:42 <McEwok> Technically, Vader becomes Master when he kills Palpatine; so Lumiya becomes Apprentice, then becomes Mistress when he dies
20:42 <Dunc> direct heir, anyway.
20:42 <McEwok> Jacen, I fear, sees killing TK as "sacrificing what he loves".
20:43 <Lusa> Yeah, thats what I'm thinking
20:43 <Dunc> And for what readon? He looks into the future and sees...?
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20:43 <sithben> Technically, that is true. But she is very poorly trained.
20:43 <Dunc> reason
20:43 <McEwok> But Jacen doesn't realise that J/TK isn't screwed-up A/P
20:43 <Trip> Yeah, reignng sith since Endor then
20:43 <Suzuki_Akira> What if Jacen looked into the future
20:43 <Suzuki_Akira> and saw that every future in which TK lived
20:43 <Suzuki_Akira> Allana died
20:44 <Suzuki_Akira> Or better yet - Ben died
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20:44 <Lusa> Duuuude! that would be wild!
20:44 <sithben> What if "sacrificing what he loves" means killing Jaina?
20:44 <McEwok> *always* in motion the future is...
20:44 <Dunc> Or Leia... Or Han.
20:44 <Lusa> I think Jaina could kick his butt, personally
20:44 <mlgm> Good evening all
20:44 <Dunc> Han, I can see.
20:44 <Lusa> Sword of the Jedi thing and all
20:44 <McEwok> Hello, mlgm
20:44 <Suzuki_Akira> Jacen could own Jaina while going back in time and eating a taco
20:44 <Trip> You know, I wonder if Jacen's future-viewing ability is the same as Mace's shatterpoint thing
20:44 <Trip> it sounds very similar
20:44 <Lusa> Hmm. It might be
20:44 <Suzuki_Akira> Jacen is the Dune Messiah
20:44 <Trip> and would explain why he's so sure of himself
20:45 <sithben> No, Jacen would take Jaina IMO. She just isnt very good with a saber. If they are in X-Wings than Jaina would win.
20:45 <Suzuki_Akira> the Kwisatz Haderach
20:45 <Lusa> But somehow I trust Mace to use it better than Jacen
20:45 <Leslie> But would Jacen really go the way Anakin did and make a huge mistake to save someone he loves?
20:45 <Dunc> So... Jacen's going to become Leto the Hutt?
20:45 <Suzuki_Akira> Jacen already has, Leslie.
20:45 <McEwok> Jacen would make a mistake to save *what* he loves.
20:45 <Trip> I don't know... Mace and Jacen are very similar in personality, come to think of it
20:45 <sithben> Yes, Jacen would, Leslie. He has and will again and again.
20:45 <McEwok> Not necessarily a person, but an ideal.
20:45 <Suzuki_Akira> I think that Leto will be Ben
20:45 <Suzuki_Akira> or Allana
20:45 <Leslie> I haven't read DN so I don't know
20:45 <McEwok> Jacen loves his metaphysics.
20:45 <Lusa> Excapt that Mace is a total badass
20:45 <Suzuki_Akira> Allana may assume a composite role of Leto and Alia
20:46 <Trip> Jacen's just embraced the 'Dark' side that Mace is terrified of
20:46 <Lusa> Yeah, thats it
20:46 * CeiranHarmony is now known as CeiranHarmony_sleepmode
20:46 <sithben> Jacen has the same foibles as his grandfather. He thinks he can be a Sith and still be good. So did Anakin
20:46 <Suzuki_Akira> Mace ain't ready
20:46 <Leslie> but it seemed that when he looked into the future and decided he should kill Thraken that he wanted to for the good of the galaxy, not an individual
20:47 <McEwok> Jacen trusts his visions an awful lot.
20:47 <Trip> Anakin didn't... he recognized from the beginning that he was committing "wrong" and loathed himself for it
20:47 <Suzuki_Akira> So what, are we giving a Luke-in VOTF rationalization of his service to evil
20:47 <Lusa> Well, he probably thinks the one he had in DN turned out to be true
20:47 <sithben> The future is always in motion, Yoda says it, Luke says it. Jacen thinks his seeings of the future arent.
20:47 <Suzuki_Akira> That he's still being selfless
20:47 <Suzuki_Akira> and so he's not truly dark?
20:47 <sithben> Only Sith see things in absolutes...
20:47 <Trip> Jacen is seeing all the possible futures as a whole, though, which is the difference
20:47 <Suzuki_Akira> ...And Jedi.
20:48 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> and a certain sith said: only jedi deal in absolutes :P so do not use this quote as a fact, quotes are pov
20:48 <Trip> Luke saw a possible future and decided it was THE future, and Yoda reprimaned him for it
20:48 <Suzuki_Akira> And he lost his arm
20:48 <McEwok> Trip two things:
20:48 <Suzuki_Akira> Which was his Campbellian contact with evil
20:48 <McEwok> 1.) Anakin did wrong *as a Jedi* first. That made Sith seem nothing
20:49 <sithben> Jacen sees what he thinks are all the futures. How is he to know that he is seeing it all. I mean he sees himself killing Luke in any future Nelani lives in. I cant see Jacen killing Luke in any future.
20:49 <McEwok> 2.) Is Jacen seeing *all* futures.
20:49 <McEwok> Yep, sithben.
20:49 <Suzuki_Akira> Word, Jacen can't fuck with Luke
20:49 <Lusa> I dunno, man. The way things are going, I could see it
20:49 <McEwok> Nelani says that Lumiya is Force-manipulating Jacen, remember.
20:49 <Suzuki_Akira> Jacen has done wrong as a Jedi first, though
20:49 <Lusa> I mean, he didn't do too shabby in that lightsaber duel
20:49 <McEwok> Remember Ben/Vader?
20:49 <Suzuki_Akira> His scene in Traitor is roughly analogous to the Tusken murders
20:49 <McEwok> ANH, I mean.
20:49 <Leslie> Anakin said he was bringing peace to the galaxy, but he was rationalizing to himself and to Padme. Jacen genuinely believes that he is doing so based on his visions.
20:50 <Trip> 2) well, there's no way to tell-- but it does explain why he's so sure of himself
20:50 <Trip> Nelani says that she can't detect any force influence
20:50 <Suzuki_Akira> Do you think that's the narrator trying to rule it out?
20:50 <Lusa> I think Lumiya's arguments were enough. she didn't need the Force
20:50 <Suzuki_Akira> Or just an in-character happenstance?
20:50 <sithben> Luke is the most powerful force user of this era, probably of any era. Jacen is very strong, but his skills are not with the lightsaber, and I dont think he could overpower Luke with the Force.
20:50 <McEwok> Trip - nor could Mace and Yoda in Palpatine's office.
20:50 <Suzuki_Akira> Because I don't think Nelani is that perceptive.
20:51 <Trip> True, true.
20:51 <Suzuki_Akira> Luke is definetely the most powerful ever
20:51 <Lusa> I dunno. I thnk Luke and Jacen are totally gonna have a showdown before this is all over, but who knows how it will go
20:51 <Trip> I'm just saying, there's no way to know, and none of the characters whose POV we see (Nelani and Jacen) detect any force-cloudiness
20:51 <Suzuki_Akira> I see Jacen contesting for that title post-Sith conversion
20:51 <Suzuki_Akira> I don't see him taking it
20:52 <sithben> I doubt she was using the Force. Yoda/Mace didnt sense Palpatine, because Palpatine was using the Force to mask his Force abilities.
20:52 <Suzuki_Akira> the Dark Side is easier...not stronger
20:52 <Trip> plus, I'd hope Jacen would be a bit more savvy force-wise than that
20:52 <Suzuki_Akira> Exactly
20:52 <Suzuki_Akira> Jacen could easily learn to make himself small in the Force, as Vergere could
20:52 <Suzuki_Akira> not even Luke could get her to reveal herself
20:52 <Trip> Bleh, this is hard to keep up with :P
20:52 <sithben> Exactly. Which is why Yoda was able to pretty much fight Sidious to a draw. His 900 years of experience equaled Palps power.
20:53 <sithben> He might make himself small. but Luke would still see him with his eyes, and be able to use his saber on him, if it came to that.
20:53 <McEwok> The entire place reeks of the Dark Side.
20:53 <McEwok> Assuming you can see the 'future' reliably and with crystal clarity and no one in the Star Wars universe is that good, so far as I know there's the fact that the future is always in motion. Everything you do can change it. So peering into all the observable futures might give a Jedi some indication of patterns, of trends, but basing any decision on one of those futures is a very risky choice. It's Charlie Brown assuming, yet one more time, that Luc
20:53 <Suzuki_Akira> Well, I was making that point for him concealing the Force from Delani
20:53 <McEwok> ^^ Aaron
20:53 <Suzuki_Akira> not from Luke
20:53 <Suzuki_Akira> That's a good quote
20:54 * Dunc changes topic to 'starwars_eu chat - current topic: Jacen Solo.'
20:54 <Suzuki_Akira> My Dune knowledge is rusty - did Paul not unlock a future he himself had not seen?
20:54 <McEwok> Luke and Mara think that the echoes that attacked them were to distract them from Jacen being brought into being...
20:54 <Trip> Yeah, I agree that Jacen's definitely too sure of himself, especially since he hasn't accurately predicted the future yet
20:54 <Lusa> Yeah. What otehr reason would there be for them to fight them?
20:54 <sithben> Except Luke and Mara dont know it is Jacen. And probably wont until Sacrifice.
20:55 <Dunc> Paul painted himself into a corner... He had to become someone else to escape it.
20:55 <Suzuki_Akira> No one knows whose child Allana is, right?
20:55 <Suzuki_Akira> Ah yes, the Prophet
20:55 <sithben> Not as of yet.
20:55 <Dunc> But again, whole different galaxy...
20:55 <Trip> What is the "Dark Jacen", though? The impression I got was it was a future Sith Jacen using flowalking techinques
20:55 <sithben> At least not on screen
20:55 <Suzuki_Akira> Yeah, Darth Vectivus
20:55 <Dunc> I feel the Paul parellel with Anakin more than Luke...
20:55 <Trip> which creates a big huge time paradox...
20:55 <Suzuki_Akira> apparently seems to be Jacen
20:55 <Lusa> Well, I gotta jet. Laters
20:55 * Lusa has quit IRC (CGI:IRC.)
20:55 <sithben> I also liked how they handled Wedge, Tycho and his daughter being on opposite sides. I loved the line where Wedge says he has family on both sides, and says this to Tycho.
20:55 <Suzuki_Akira> Yeah I agree that Paul fits more with Anakin than Luke
20:55 <sithben> I wrote that liuke 30 minutes ago lol
20:56 <Dunc> and Jacen. I meant Jacen. :D
20:56 <Dunc> Though Paul is, personality-wise, more like Luke.
20:56 <Suzuki_Akira> ohhh
20:56 <sithben> Darth Jacen is a future flowwalker.
20:56 <Suzuki_Akira> Which would alter his future, right?
20:56 <Suzuki_Akira> I mean, grandfather theory
20:56 <Trip> You think so?
20:56 <sithben> But I do have to go as well. I will check back to see if this is still going on later.
20:56 <Suzuki_Akira> could someone go back in time and kill their grandfather?
20:56 <Trip> Like I said, it's a big paradox
20:56 * sithben has quit IRC (CGI:IRC.)
20:57 <Dunc> Yes, in the last book, Jacen is going to flow walk, and kill Lumiya, and it will all be but a dream...
20:57 <Trip> Let's hope not.
20:57 <Suzuki_Akira> I would stop reading Star Wars
20:57 <Dunc> :D
20:57 <McEwok> They could reboot continuity?
20:57 <Trip> Heh, I've "stopped reading Star Wars" like eight times in the past decade...
20:57 <Dunc> I would laugh and laugh...
20:57 <pirate_lass> live the Legacy era over again?
20:57 <Suzuki_Akira> Hahaha.
20:57 <Dunc> Or reboot the NJO.
20:58 <Trip> It would be funny, I'll admit.
20:58 <Dunc> FROM the NJO, I mean. Wipe out the Vong or something.
20:58 <McEwok> Who knows?
20:58 <Leslie> It would certainly solve this problem of characters getting old
20:58 <Dunc> Honestly, I would totally get behind that.
20:58 <Trip> Given how it'd piss pretty much everyone off.
20:58 <McEwok> Back to the end of TLC?
20:58 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> lol
20:58 <McEwok> Thirded
20:58 <Trip> Hell, back to the beginning.
20:58 <Dunc> The NJO was a total waste of five years of books...
20:58 <McEwok> I dunno. It did some interesting things.
20:58 <Dunc> Not the movies, though. leave the movies...
20:59 <McEwok> The main thing about the NJO is that I don't think they knew what they were doing...
20:59 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> why not make all that happened a vision of anakin skywalker.. the vision of ever growing and continuing war that made him choose order and turn..start his journey?
20:59 <McEwok> They didn't expect it...
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20:59 <McEwok> Perhaps Jacen is already responsible for everything...
20:59 <McEwok> He's Vader's father, and clone Palpatine.
21:00 <McEwok> And Palpatine, even.
21:00 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> nooo
21:00 <pirate_lass> that would be the most fabulous thing ever
21:00 <DaEmp> mcewok: so jacen should take the name darth plageus in lotf?
21:00 <Dunc> That's a bit much
21:00 <Trip> He's the one who suggested Coruscant might be a nifty place for humans to live
21:01 <McEwok> ^^ To clarify, what I meant on the NJO was that the only way to find out the effect of the story was to tell it...
21:01 <McEwok> Trip - who was?
21:01 <Trip> In all seriousness, I don't think flow walkers can physically interact with the past
21:01 <Trip> Jacen
21:01 <Leslie> It's the The Grand Unified Jacen Solo Theory of the Universe... http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/User:Darth_Culator#April_2006_.28work_in_progress.29
21:01 <Leslie> I love it!
21:01 <pirate_lass> Jacen spoke to his mother while flowwalking
21:01 <Trip> Heh, yeah, I read that earlier today
21:01 <Trip> pretty funny
21:01 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> maybe flowwalking is just like visions... one possible future, not showing as vision but as physical vision in 3D not only in the mind
21:01 <McEwok> Jacen could flow-walk and then skip into another body or something...
21:02 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> though, DN mentioned flowwalking sets a certain future in stone? is this a sure thing? if so.. the dark jacen future, if he really was dark and not only pretending to be to fool lumiya, is a sure thing
21:02 <McEwok> Jacen does interact - he feels the heat when he's reliving Lomi and Raynar's crash...
21:02 <pirate_lass> flowwalking + mind control?
21:02 <Suzuki_Akira> Jesus...
21:02 <Trip> The thing I do like about flow-walking is it des work fairly logically
21:02 <pirate_lass> I think he should just build himself a TARDIS and be done with it
21:02 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> flowwalking + force enhanced sex? new theories upcoming
21:02 <Suzuki_Akira> What if Jacen and Luke get into a fight
21:03 <Suzuki_Akira> and then Jacen flowwalks
21:03 <Suzuki_Akira> and crashes Luke's skyhopper in beggar's canyon
21:03 <Suzuki_Akira> The ultimate sucker punch.
21:03 <Trip> Humn, true McEwok, but to the people he interacts he's only vaguely there
21:03 <McEwok> I think flowwalking is only possible in the timeline in which it already exists...
21:03 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> how so?
21:03 <McEwok> Also, way back in _Jedi Eclipse_ Karrde, bright man, suggested to Luke that Luke was willing a timeline into being.
21:03 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> what defines it exists?
21:03 <Trip> What I mean about it being logical though is that it starts things that already happened
21:03 <Suzuki_Akira> what timeline?
21:03 <Trip> Basically, what McEwok just said
21:04 <Suzuki_Akira> If he flowwalks in his own timeline
21:04 <Suzuki_Akira> its not his timeline anymore
21:04 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> ah so the force wanted it and indiviudals only can do so if it allows
21:04 <McEwok> Interesting conversation. Some tasty subtext, and it's interrupted by Anakin and Jacen trying to attack each other...
21:04 <McEwok> No, no...
21:04 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> ??
21:04 <McEwok> To flow-walk, you're establishing that the past happened the way it happened.
21:05 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> but what if you choose not to do it?
21:05 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> or is that option not possible?
21:05 <Suzuki_Akira> If you flow walk
21:05 <DaEmp> let's hope not. the more it resembles time travel, the more it could muck everything up.
21:05 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> and who made the choice then, the force?
21:05 <Suzuki_Akira> and you establish the past
21:05 <Trip> Yep. Jacen goes back and gives Thul the strength to live, creating the Dark Nest-- which was already there in the present
21:05 <Suzuki_Akira> it already was the past
21:05 <Trip> Basically, yeah, there's no active choice
21:05 <Trip> it already happened
21:05 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> lets change topic.. this gets too confused every time I hear it..
21:05 <McEwok> Well, that's where Karrde's question comes in... how much can a Jedi *unconsciously* influence what happens?
21:05 <Trip> It's hard to explain...
21:06 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> a question humanity asks itself for eons
21:06 <Trip> McEwok, how do you mean?
21:06 <Suzuki_Akira> I have trouble rationalizing flow walking
21:06 <Suzuki_Akira> at all
21:06 <Suzuki_Akira> except as strict observance
21:06 <McEwok> Basically, there are no paradoxes.
21:06 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> I mean: do we have choice or is fate predestined?
21:06 <McEwok> If you flow-walk backwards, you're already in a time in which the flow-walk occurred...
21:06 <Suzuki_Akira> Jesus.
21:07 <Trip> Exactly. Jacen makes the choice, but that choice is predetermined by past events.
21:07 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> I see it as a combination of both: we have free choice, but through all our actions, thoughts etc. we set our own future in stone. and certain events we pull towards us through our thought energy turning real the more intensive we think at something, or the less doubt we have
21:07 <McEwok> Good answer.
21:07 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> can one flowwalk into the future?
21:07 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> thx
21:07 <McEwok> Yes...
21:07 <McEwok> Jacen flowwalks forward to where Leia will be...
21:07 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> ah right
21:08 <McEwok> Luke doesn't like this...
21:08 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> how then about that, it was not set in stone yet
21:08 <McEwok> He sees it as "defining" the future...
21:08 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> hmm
21:08 <Trip> That's a more difficult one-- did Jacen just choose a possible future and, by interacting with it, make it reality?
21:08 <Trip> Or was that the future to begin with?
21:09 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> I see it as one possible future.. he didn´t even set it in stone, it just looked like if he did it. what if he flowwalked to leia in the future, but leia never visited the crash in the timeline that occured? characters wouldn´t have wondered about setting the future in stone etc.
21:10 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> if they worry about it it already happened, but before they know, they do not worry.
21:10 <Suzuki_Akira> How are there any "possible futures" with flowwalking
21:11 <Trip> I can't remember-- did Jacen interact with Leia, or just wave and let her know he was there?
21:11 <Dunc> this topic is giving me a headache...
21:11 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> so.. it can only be set in stone after it happened, and since it did not yet happened it is not set in stone.
21:11 <Dunc> he left a message, an impression.
21:11 <Trip> So change it. ; )
21:11 <Dunc> Ewok? Come up with something.
21:12 <Dunc> Somethinng not flow-walking
21:12 <McEwok> A new topic?
21:12 <Dunc> yes
21:12 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> lets change the topic from DN back to betrayal^^ will Sekot have a role in lotf and appear? why do they not use a superforceuser against the threat of the sith? or is sekot sith with the potentium now? are the vong then, too?
21:12 <McEwok> I was trying to work out if you meant that...
21:12 <McEwok> Or a continuity fix ;)
21:12 <Trip> I have something-- since when did lightsabers emit so much bloody heat?
21:12 <McEwok> Who is Thrackan building an assault fleet to assault?
21:12 <Dunc> Didn't we already do sekot?
21:12 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> GFFA?
21:12 <McEwok> Since TPM.
21:12 <Dunc> Yes, that one...
21:13 * Dunc changes topic to 'starwars_eu chat - current topic: Thrackan and the assault fleet.'
21:13 <McEwok> Hmm... but who, exactly?
21:13 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> TOtJ era had much more uncontroled lightsabers radiating more heat and angerous flames..
21:13 <pirate_lass> Sekot's still hiding with the Vong, isn't it? So won't it stay out of everything?
21:13 <McEwok> It's specifically a "planetary assault fleet" - an Aidel Saxan's POV confirms that...
21:13 <Trip> In TPM they heat up the metal, but I'm not sure that they radiate heat like they do in Betrayal
21:13 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> first: to press tenel ka and hapes into the war, second to fight coruscant
21:13 <McEwok> Well, the Bothans don't like Sekot...
21:13 <McEwok> Coruscant?
21:13 <Trip> about the planetary assault fleet: an ace in the hole?
21:14 <Dunc> But what beef would Thracken have with Tenel Ka?
21:14 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> I hope the Bothan ar'kai continues :P
21:14 <Dunc> They destroyed the Hapan fleet, not the other way around.
21:14 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> lets get rid of them in suicide attack against sekot
21:14 <Trip> I'm more interested in where it's being built
21:14 <Trip> Somewhere in the Corellian sector, I guess
21:14 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> corellian shipyards
21:15 <Trip> It wouldn't really be secret then, would it? ;)
21:15 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> hide it in the public
21:15 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> the best hiding place, palpatine style
21:15 <Suzuki_Akira> Agreed.
21:15 <Trip> I doubt the GA would miss that.
21:15 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> freighter fleets, with secret arms hidden
21:15 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> like Trade federation had
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21:16 <Trip> I reckon it's possible, but I'd hope it included Stridents and other military ships
21:16 <Kyp_Durron0> im baaack
21:16 * jawastew has quit IRC (jawastew.)
21:16 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> and corellians are known for very adaptable ships... built civilian ships... and in a few minutes they can be retrofitted with weapons en masse
21:16 <Trip> Corellia seems to use a fair amount of KDY equipment, anyone notice that?
21:16 <McEwok> Saxan's POV gives the name...
21:16 <McEwok> Hang on...
21:17 <Trip> I wonder if there's any particular authorial reasoning behind it, or if the hardware was just picked at random
21:17 <Kyp_Durron0> is this the Live Betrayal Chat the Dark Spork mentioned on the SW.com boards?
21:17 <Dunc> KDY?
21:17 <Trip> yep
21:17 <Dunc> Yes, Kyp. I'm Spork.
21:17 <Trip> Kuat Drive Yards
21:17 <Dunc> ahh
21:17 <DaEmp> kuat drive yards, dunc
21:17 <Kyp_Durron0> oh hey
21:18 <McEwok> Kiris.
21:18 <Trip> Kiris?
21:18 <Trip> Bliwox.
21:18 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> ?
21:18 <McEwok> Thrackan and his allies are building the fleet at Kiris - wherever that is.
21:18 <Trip> Oh, I thought we were just making up words. :P
21:18 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> lol
21:18 <Kyp_Durron0> so, ive almost done the book im gunna finish it tonight
21:18 <Trip> I missed that part-- is it a new place?
21:19 <Kyp_Durron0> i know wat happens though...
21:19 <Dunc> Nothing on Wookieepedia about Kiris.
21:19 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> how about tahiri, will she ever get a boyfriend?
21:19 <Kyp_Durron0> she should hook up with Kyp lol
21:19 <Suzuki_Akira> nah
21:20 <Trip> Hmm... new then
21:20 <McEwok> Aidel Saxan's POV, p. 68. "Could the Galactic Alliance have finally uncovered the Kiris shipyards?"
21:20 <Kyp_Durron0> he needs a GF
21:20 <Dunc> Shall I change the topic back to 'Jaina and her harem'?
21:20 <Suzuki_Akira> Sure.
21:20 <McEwok> Jaina/Tahiri?
21:20 <Kyp_Durron0> pff harem?
21:20 <McEwok> Bring back Anakin solo, I say?
21:20 <Trip> I guess it's in the Corellian sector, then.
21:20 <Dunc> Jaina's harem: Zekk, Jag, Kyp.
21:20 <pirate_lass> Tahiri couldn't join the harem. Jaina doesn't like blondes
21:20 <Kyp_Durron0> um hes dead...
21:20 <pirate_lass> she's got the green eyes though... maybe with a wig
21:21 <Kyp_Durron0> ah Kyps the best out of them u all know it!
21:21 <Kyp_Durron0> lol
21:21 <Trip> Well, i gotta run... how long is this thing on for?
21:21 * Dunc changes topic to 'starwars_eu chat - current topic: General shippiness.'
21:21 <Dunc> as long as it needs to be... no idea
21:21 <Suzuki_Akira> So, Ben/Jysella anyone?
21:21 * Suzuki_Akira winks at Dunc
21:21 * Dunc sighs.
21:21 <Trip> sounds good... see y'all
21:21 <Dunc> No Skywalker/Horn mingling, please.
21:21 <McEwok> Be, trip!
21:21 <Suzuki_Akira> Ben/Myri?
21:22 * Trip has quit IRC
21:22 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> Taachume/Thrackan anyone? they are such a cute couple.. come on.. their mindsets fit
21:22 <pirate_lass> Ben/Tahiri, to make up for the whole Anakin thing
21:22 <Dunc> How old is Myri? Can't be that much younger than Syal.
21:22 <pirate_lass> and with the bonus creepy age different of the sunken Kyp/Jaina ship
21:22 <McEwok> Suzuki - you read fanfic? Tried Kidan's stuff? Lots of Bensella...
21:22 <Suzuki_Akira> Ben can git that older tail.
21:22 <pirate_lass> *difference, which I cannot spell
21:22 <Dunc> We do know Ben likes 'em dark... See Nelani.
21:22 <McEwok> His dad did. :P
21:22 <Suzuki_Akira> Nelani's black?
21:23 <Kyp_Durron0> were'd u get that from?
21:23 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> how old are syal and myri? and jysella and valin would be how old by now?
21:23 <McEwok> Dark hair, sure...
21:23 <Suzuki_Akira> ohhhh
21:23 <Suzuki_Akira> I thought you meant skin
21:23 <Suzuki_Akira> she's human, right?
21:23 <McEwok> I dunno. Dunc?
21:23 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> from Lorrd
21:23 <McEwok> From Lorrd.
21:23 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> so would be human
21:23 <Dunc> Human.
21:23 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> lorrdian human
21:24 <Suzuki_Akira> I like the echo answers.
21:24 <Suzuki_Akira> Echo answers.
21:24 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> :P
21:24 <Suzuki_Akira> heh.
21:24 <pirate_lass> Syal is in her early 20s
21:24 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> so myri is late teens?
21:25 * Rohniss has joined #eu
21:25 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> any specific age given? or just vague?
21:25 <Kyp_Durron0> Myri's not really mentioned too much
21:25 <Suzuki_Akira> Myri is older than ben by like 6 years I think
21:25 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> hi rohniss
21:25 <Dunc> must be. They weren't too far apart in Union, were they?
21:25 <pirate_lass> something like that? I think that whole generation is about at the "kicked out of the nest" age
21:26 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> k so jysella and valin are same age or older than syl and myri?
21:26 <Dunc> http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Antilles_family_%28Corellian%29
21:26 <McEwok> Hey, Rhoniss
21:26 <McEwok> Jysella is youngest...
21:26 <Suzuki_Akira> sup Rohniss
21:26 <McEwok> 'cept Ben.
21:26 <Rohniss> sup
21:26 <McEwok> Dani and Danni are oldest
21:26 <Dunc> Ben is a whole 'nother generation, I'd say...
21:27 <Dunc> Ben and Jysella
21:27 <Dunc> And more will show up eventually...
21:28 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> k thx
21:28 * Rohniss has quit IRC (CGI:IRC.)
21:28 <McEwok> Dunc. I'll quote you on that.
21:28 <Dunc> What?
21:28 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> did we already discuss centerpoint and Anibot?
21:28 * Rohniss has joined #eu
21:28 <McEwok> "Kinda odd to think that Han's oldest (apocryphal) kid is 39 years older than Ben..."
21:29 <McEwok> If we did, I missed it...
21:29 <McEwok> Sorry, not that.
21:29 * Dunc is confused
21:29 <McEwok> "Ben is a whole 'nother generation"
21:29 <Dunc> So?
21:29 <McEwok> But now is the perfect moment.
21:29 <McEwok> Anibot.
21:29 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> yubyub
21:29 <Dunc> Oh lord, do NOT use that as justification for f###ing Marakin.
21:29 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> let the conspiracy begin hrhr
21:29 <McEwok> How do I change the subject on this?
21:29 * McEwok laughs
21:30 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> .settopic Marakin
21:30 <Rohniss> ohh god you knew it was coming
21:30 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> :P
21:30 * mlgm has quit IRC
21:30 <Dunc> I? Am not a Lucasfilm employee
21:30 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> not yet
21:30 <Dunc> No.
21:30 <McEwok> Not marakin
21:30 <McEwok> settopic Centerpoint
21:30 * Dunc changes topic to 'starwars_eu chat - current topic: Centerpoint.'
21:30 <McEwok> McGuffin? Or something more?
21:31 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> who do you think built anibot, and when? is it ancient? is it built by Anakin Solo? or later after his death?
21:31 <Rohniss> I dunno maybe centerpoint shares some things with the Star Forge?
21:31 <Dunc> I haven't the slightest
21:31 <Rohniss> IE production capabilities..
21:31 * Kyp_Durron0 has quit IRC (Client exited.)
21:31 <Dunc> All I know about the anibot is the early spoilers made waaay too much of a big deal about it...
21:31 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> but anibot wasn´t there all the previous times we saw centerpoint in the eu, not centerpoint droids
21:32 <McEwok> It jokes that Thrackan is its father... but Thrackan hates droids, and certainly doesn't build 'em for fun.
21:32 <Dunc> But Ben sure made it change it's mind fast, didn't he?
21:32 <McEwok> We know that anibot wasn't in the control-room three weeks earlier.
21:32 <Dunc> But they threw folks out three weeks earlier...
21:32 <Rohniss> are you saying Centerpoint is sentient McE?
21:32 <Dunc> So maybe that's when it was ready?
21:32 <McEwok> Nope...
21:32 <McEwok> And in doing so, Anibot stops Ben destroying Thrackan's superweapon.
21:33 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> so.. anibot came from somewhere else, heh? some secret place where one builds droids.. like anakin solo designed YVH droids..
21:33 <McEwok> Rhoniss, what are you asking
21:33 <McEwok> ?
21:33 <McEwok> ?
21:33 <Dunc> Did Anakin design the YVH?
21:33 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> yub he did, lando stole the design and massproduction began
21:34 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> anakin designed them for jedi training against "robot-vong"
21:34 <McEwok> Fan-theory
21:34 <Dunc> Musta been one of the books/passages I skipped.
21:34 <McEwok> Good one. But fan-theory.
21:34 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> not fan theory, it was in the novels
21:34 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> rebirth
21:34 <Rohniss> I thought you were implying that Centerpoint produced Anakin Solo Droid of its own accord, implying sientence of the battlestation.. just as another wacky theory... retracted
21:34 <McEwok> Anakin's droids were, yes...
21:34 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> anakin trained with one he had build on boosters ship errant venture
21:34 <McEwok> Rhoniss... have a Golden Ewokâ„¢!
21:35 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> ???
21:35 <McEwok> True - but no evidence Lando based YVHs off Anakin's design.
21:35 <McEwok> Cool, but fanon.
21:35 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> they look the same, act the same, have the same name? more evidence needed?
21:35 <McEwok> Are they called YVHs in Rebirth?
21:36 <McEwok> And does anyone who's not me, CH, or Rohniss have anything to add?
21:36 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> they are YV-Droids the hunter pard is made by lando
21:36 <Dunc> on this? No.
21:36 <Dunc> Tech SOOO not my thing.
21:36 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> theymight be called YVH but can´t recall, YV for sure
21:37 * DarthPerch has joined #eu
21:38 <Rohniss> im just stoked I won a golden ewok on IRC... thats a first I believe
21:39 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> maybe Anakin built Anibot shortly after BP to keep Centerpoint in check and out of thrackans hands.. but with anakin solo dna samples thrackan convinced the droid to obey him?
21:39 <Suzuki_Akira> I haven't won one yet
21:39 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> congrats Rohniss^^
21:39 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> I have one lots of other stuff but no ewok.. or have I? can´t recall. doesn´t matter :) fun stays fun
21:40 <Rohniss> ja
21:40 <McEwok> Why does Thrackan need a droid anyway?
21:40 <McEwok> Mara has portable utility-belt kit that allows her to immitate Thrackan.
21:40 * nanner has quit IRC (Client exited.)
21:40 <Rohniss> more like why does he need a driod of Anakin Solo specifically
21:40 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> because centerpoint only accepts anakin solo as operator.. and shuts down if not used for some time like after BP. to reactivate it, they need anakins DNA
21:40 <McEwok> Exactly.
21:41 <McEwok> No more so than Thrackan's computer needs the real Thrackan.
21:41 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> but.. do they need the DNA, or a complete droid?
21:41 <McEwok> Mara uses tissue samples, fake fingerprints and a holo-image...
21:41 <pirate_lass> Centerpoint is probably a bit more complicated than Thracken's computer
21:41 <pirate_lass> so it takes more effort to crack
21:41 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> and if they have the DNA.. why not clone anakin (tarc)? or why a droid with personality?
21:42 <McEwok> The point I'm making is that - well, Aaron *could* have just come up with Anibot because the idea is cool... which it is...
21:42 <Suzuki_Akira> You're the last person I'd expect that from
21:42 <Rohniss> or to provide fanservice
21:42 <McEwok> But at the same time, there are niggles. It's not really necessary.
21:42 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> though fans dig deeper
21:42 <McEwok> Its one function in the story is actually to *prevent* Ben destroying Centerpoint
21:42 <Rohniss> for the hordes of Anakin Solo fans that felt shafted by SbS
21:43 <Suzuki_Akira> Anibot is a physical manifestation of the personality of Aaron Allston while he was a soccer player
21:43 <Suzuki_Akira> His role is roughly analogous to Allston's position - centerback
21:43 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> DNA would not suffice, if it sufficed he´d not need a droid. so he needs anakins personality? where did he get that from? only way I see it work is transfer a clones mind into the droid entechment like the ssi ruuvi can do
21:43 <Suzuki_Akira> Anibot is a harbinger of imminent attack each and every time he appears
21:43 <Suzuki_Akira> And at once...a symbol of hope
21:44 <Rohniss> right C_H but how can you extract someone's personality from DNA
21:44 <McEwok> I still don't understand why they need a three-meter-tall junk-built droid that thinks it's Anakin...
21:44 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> and.. after he transfered the anakin clone personality into the droid he gave the clone body away? tarc? so centerpoint reacts not to anakins dna but his personality?
21:44 <McEwok> Apparently they have some sort of brainwave immitator, which may be part of it - but still...
21:45 <McEwok> They have DNA, retinal scans, all sorts of different biometrics.
21:45 * pirate_lass has quit IRC (Client exited.)
21:45 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> where did they get them and why did they do them before they knew what anakin can do?
21:45 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> best guess still is: CLONEAKIN
21:45 <McEwok> No need to shout.
21:46 <McEwok> I wouldn't put it past Thrackan.
21:46 <McEwok> After all, Corellia likes heroes.
21:46 <McEwok> But the question is, would DelRey go for it?
21:46 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> well it would add the clone moral discussion from the prequels to the legacy era.. with new moral conflicts. karen is in, so maybe she can do that?
21:46 <McEwok> Thoughts from the audience?
21:47 <Dunc> I don't like the idea of a clone Anakin.
21:47 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> also would parents accept a clone son? or think it is just a clone? fits karens spoilers about family in her book and what it means to be a family etc.
21:47 <Dunc> I've had it with these clones.
21:47 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> I don´t like it as well, but it could work
21:47 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> it makes more sense than without a clone, I think
21:48 <Dunc> Hrm.
21:48 <Rohniss> going back to my Traitor in the ranks theme I posted... what if Clonakin is the traitor.. programmed and all.. to obey... Thracken
21:48 <CeiranHarmony_sleepmode> also tahiri/cloneakin might fulfill the prophecy
21:50 <Dunc> hrm.
21:51 <Dunc> I really dislike dragging up all the rotten YJK/JJK stuff.
21:51 <McEwok> Go on...
21:51 <Dunc> Some things need to stay buried...
21:51 * Rohniss has quit IRC (CGI:IRC.)
21:51 <Suzuki_Akira> The JJK prophecy
21:51 <Suzuki_Akira> or the Ikrit Edge of Victory prophecy
21:51 * Maemee has joined #eu
21:51 <McEwok> JJK prophecy?
21:51 <Dunc> Ikrit himself...
21:52 * Rohniss has joined #eu
21:52 <Dunc> I dunno. I couldn't get past the first one.
21:52 <Dunc> Anyway, my answer for that is the same as 'Mother Rell said Luke would have children' thing...
21:52 <Dunc> The future is always in motion.
21:53 * Ceiran has joined #eu
21:53 * CeiranHarmony_sleepmode has quit IRC (Ping timeout.)
21:53 <Ceiran> back
21:53 <Maemee> Visions stink. We should all know that by now!
21:53 <Ceiran> did I miss something?
21:53 <McEwok> Nope.
21:53 <Rohniss> sorry, for some reason Mozilla isnt liking me ..
21:53 <Ceiran> k
21:54 <Maemee> Mother Rell's vision. Maybe at one point in time. Same with Ikrit, maybe at one point in time.
21:54 * Maemee has quit IRC (CGI:IRC.)
21:54 * Maemee has joined #eu
21:55 <McEwok> True. But we're in danger of returning to flow-walking...
21:55 <Dunc> eww!
21:55 * Maemee has quit IRC (Client exited.)
21:55 <Ceiran> that´s the thing.. what would you do if you knew the future? or a possible future. would you just be yourself.. or would you act according to that knowledge? or would you ignore it hoping when you do nothing it will not become true? how to know? there is no way to know for sure
21:55 <Suzuki_Akira> Jacen flowwalked to make Luke shoot blanks?
21:55 <Dunc> Okay, new direction...
21:55 <McEwok> I agree, though, that Anakin screwed up - probably when Tahiri withheld that kiss, even...
21:56 <Ceiran> no, corran interrupted their destiny when he caught them :P
21:57 * RogueOne has quit IRC (CGI:IRC (Ping timeout).)
21:57 <Suzuki_Akira> OOh that gives me a theory
21:57 <Ceiran> tell us
21:57 <Suzuki_Akira> When Corran opened the locker on em
21:57 <Suzuki_Akira> and gave us that splendid one liner
21:57 <McEwok> Interresting...
21:57 <Ceiran> :D
21:57 <Suzuki_Akira> Anakin was all: "Kriff, does it show?"
21:57 <Suzuki_Akira> No....it doesn't.
21:58 * Rohniss has quit IRC (CGI:IRC.)
21:58 <Suzuki_Akira> How would Corran have known about this? His telepathy is good, sure, but the moment had his attention elsewhere
21:58 <Suzuki_Akira> Obviously Jacen flowwalked to disrupt this little incident...because it produced a child. A child, that with Ben Skywalker, overthrew him.
21:58 <Ceiran> corellians have a habit of being in the wrong place at the wrong time^^
21:58 <DaEmp> corran's a cop. he's not so easily or completely diverted.
21:58 <Dunc> ...wha?
21:59 <Suzuki_Akira> I don't buy it
21:59 <Suzuki_Akira> anyone can get diverted when there's no oxygen
21:59 <Dunc> Jacen flowwalked to prevent Tahiri and Anakin having a bratling?
21:59 <Suzuki_Akira> Yezzir.
21:59 <Suzuki_Akira> Together you are more powerful than the sum of your parts
21:59 <DaEmp> i guess you could call that "darth control".
21:59 <Suzuki_Akira> As in, this kid is more powerful than the two put together
22:00 <Ceiran> hmm.. and later anakin is dead, tahiri likes jacen and is gooood close friend..
22:00 <McEwok> It's a quote of a scene in the original 1974 rough draft, for what it's worth...
22:01 <Dunc> Oye.
22:01 <Ceiran> oh?
22:01 <Suzuki_Akira> o rly?
22:01 <Ceiran> context of the quote?
22:01 <Dunc> Was Tahiri part of the strike team in SbS?
22:01 <Suzuki_Akira> Yezzir.
22:01 <Ceiran> yub she was
22:02 <Ceiran> but.. when Jaina nearly got killed, Jacen didn´t even try to help her, mission in mind. anakin went back, nobody else did. weird..
22:02 <Ceiran> though, this is not betrayal discussion anymore *cough cough*
22:03 <McEwok> Sorry... the entire scene.
22:03 <Dunc> Okay, okay...
22:03 <McEwok> Anakin and a blonde in a locker, discovered by a Jedi Master.
22:03 <Dunc> Did Ben scan really as a 13 year old?
22:03 * Dunc changes topic to 'starwars_eu chat - current topic: Ben Skywalker.'
22:04 <Dunc> I know was intentially acting young in parts, but...
22:04 <McEwok> Hmm. He seemed older at times.
22:04 <McEwok> But then, he is Jacen's padawan.
22:04 <McEwok> He had a cockiness...
22:04 <McEwok> His Lando impression, for instance...
22:04 * Rohniss has joined #eu
22:04 <Suzuki_Akira> He did an impression of Lando?
22:05 <McEwok> Yeah... to Nelani.
22:05 <McEwok> Very funny.
22:05 <Ceiran> offtopic: I think somehow, one day there will be a lando system..named after lando for whatever reason.. would be a nice hint to the OT
22:05 <Ceiran> hmm maybe adumar or lorrd mission next topic?
22:05 <Dunc> Wouldn't it be the Calrissian system?
22:05 <Dunc> sure
22:05 <McEwok> Hah!
22:05 <Suzuki_Akira> And he still didn't get laid?
22:05 <McEwok> Dunc - think...
22:05 <Suzuki_Akira> Poor kid.
22:06 <Dunc> I know the quote, but..
22:06 <Rohniss> Naw I think Colt 45 would be a better nod to the OT and Lando :D
22:06 <McEwok> Technically, we don't know he didn't...
22:06 <Ceiran> he is 13.. he can wait.. 1 more year :P
22:06 <Dunc> Well, 13 is not the most attractive age.
22:06 <Suzuki_Akira> I'm with McEwok
22:06 <Dunc> And freckles, the poor kid.
22:07 <Suzuki_Akira> It's all good, he can probably bench press a thousand pounds or something
22:07 <Suzuki_Akira> unless there are ysalamiri around
22:07 <Ceiran> he is a skywalker.. he inherited a baad look from Luke.. or whoever his father really was
22:07 <Ceiran> the solos are beauties all
22:07 <Ceiran> :P
22:07 * Trip has joined #eu
22:07 <Rohniss> man Dunc I thought you said "13 is the most attractice age"
22:07 * McEwok stays quiet
22:07 * Suzuki_Akira cracks up
22:07 * Dunc snickers
22:07 <Ceiran> lol
22:07 <Dunc> Yeah, sorry, no.
22:08 * Ceiran drifts into sleepmode
22:08 <Dunc> lolcakes.
22:08 <Dunc> Come, we must poke Ceiran with our sharp pointy fingers!
22:08 <Trip> Trip is perplexed.
22:08 <Dunc> Poor Trip.
22:08 <Dunc> Why?
22:08 <Rohniss> *pokes C_H*
22:08 * McEwok apologises on behalf of starwars_eu to any 13-y.o. fanboys who were disappointed by Dunc there.
22:08 <Ceiran> lol, hey.. it isn´t 4 a.m. where you live, right?
22:09 <Dunc> Nope.
22:09 <Suzuki_Akira> Hahahaa
22:09 * Dunc pokes.
22:09 <McEwok> CH, go sleep.
22:09 <Rohniss> thats what you get for living in Europe
22:09 * McEwok sharpens pointy stick
22:09 <Ceiran> I try to go to sleep.. but this chat rocks.. need to go chatting with you all more often^^
22:09 <Dunc> :)
22:09 <Dunc> I think we'll prolly do this agin...
22:10 <Rohniss> yeah I am liking this... better than the boards maybe a TF.N hosted chatserver?
22:10 <Dunc> Maybe a Sunday.. a bit earlier for the Euro folks...
22:10 <Dunc> Although summer is a bad time.
22:10 <Ceiran> yub would like a tfn chat^^ count me in! well, reading transcript tomorrow^^ if I find it.. good night and have fun ;) bye
22:10 <Dunc> Not everything needs to be TFN...
22:10 <Dunc> Holonet has been a sw-centric IRC for... 7 years?
22:10 <Ceiran> right, njoe.com should do it :P
22:10 <McEwok> Random question.
22:11 <Dunc> But I would recommend getting mIRC if you plan to do this regularly.
22:11 <Rohniss> chatzilla is what im using now
22:11 <Dunc> The web client can be sluggish
22:11 <McEwok> When the "echo" Jacen attacks, Luke is in the corridor outside his quarters, with his eyes shut, and wearing sleep-clothes.
22:11 <Ceiran> I have mIRC, but.. I am out now..really.. finally.. bye
22:11 <McEwok> Why?
22:11 <Rohniss> the client was screwing with me
22:11 <Suzuki_Akira> Okay, peace
22:11 <Trip> what little stuff I've participated in has been fun
22:11 <McEwok> Bye!
22:11 <McEwok> Sleep well - dream of TK!
22:11 <Suzuki_Akira> I know I will
22:11 <Dunc> Night Cieran
22:11 <Trip> Bye Ceiran
22:11 <Dunc> Ceiran
22:11 <Suzuki_Akira> Night
22:11 <Ceiran> ^^
22:12 <Rohniss> payce
22:12 <Trip> Didn't pick up on that
22:12 * Ceiran has left #eu
22:12 <Trip> What page is it on, McEwok?
22:12 <Dunc> Sigh.
22:12 <McEwok> He opens his eyes and sees Jacen coming down the corridor. He's definately in the corridor. Mara's asleep in bed.
22:13 <McEwok> Later, after the battle, he gets dressed.
22:13 <Rohniss> So Luke was sleep walking...
22:13 <McEwok> page 341
22:13 <Trip> or got booted out of bed
22:14 <Trip> huh, weird, didn't pick up on that
22:14 <Suzuki_Akira> that's strange
22:14 <Trip> Meditating, maybe?
22:14 <McEwok> Could be. He "rises" to meet Jacen, meaning he's either sleeping or meditating.
22:14 <McEwok> It is odd.
22:15 <Trip> Especially since the corridor is stone floor, IIRC
22:15 <Trip> Not too comfy to sleep on

And then Aaron Allston shows up...

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