Chat for Legacy of the Force: Invincible
Sunday, May 18th, 2008 / #eu on irc.holonet.org

20:00 <Dunc> So, what do we think of Invincible?
20:00 <Loyal_Imperial> It was...okay?
20:01 <dgxxx> I'm halfway and it is better than the spoilers says
20:01 <Dunc> I found it rushed.
20:01 <Trip> It sounds like a worthwhile read...
20:01 <becca> I HATE that I love this book.
20:01 <Trip> Just for shits & grins, I mean
20:01 <Loyal_Imperial> The end felt rushed.
20:01 *Dunc raps Trip's knuckles
20:01 <becca> that pretty much sums up my entire feelings about it
20:01 <jawastew> it seemed like denning just wanted to get it over with
20:02 <Dunc> There seemed a lot missing.
20:02 <becca> yeah, the end needed ten more pages and the Daala thing needed not to be there
20:02 <Loyal_Imperial> The earlier parts seemed okay, but the last parts felt really...out there.
20:02 <Trip> Ow
20:02 <Dunc> Like, Corellia? They got what, two mentions?
20:02 <Trip> Poops & grins, then?
20:02 <Loyal_Imperial> Especially the bits with the Moffs.
20:02 *Uli changes topic to 'INVINCIBLE CHAT: NOW.'
20:02 <becca> I was actually okay with it being so compact and brief - just Ben & Tahiri and Jaina & Jacen
20:02 <Loyal_Imperial> And Daala.
20:02 <jawastew> randomly, at the end
20:02 <Dunc> I suspect they're setting something up with Daala
20:02 <becca> But yeah, the Daala thing...
20:02 <Uli> Something Daala-Dick Dastardly?
20:02 <becca> I'm terrified
20:02 <Dunc> At least, I HOPE.
20:02 <dgxxx> Daala -----> Fel dinasty
20:02 <Uli> With Boba as Mutley?
20:02 <Dunc> Because, I mean, this is DAALA.
20:02 <Trip> So, Dunc... were you as amused about Daala as I thought you'd be?
20:02 <Loyal_Imperial> Even offering it to Bwua'tu felt really weird.
20:02 <becca> Because the blurb for the next book is all "under the strong hand of admiral daala the galaxy knows a period of unknown peace..."
20:02 <jawastew> has the Corellian thing been resolved? ...did I MISS that in the series?
20:03 <becca> and I'm like, WTF?!!
20:03 <Dunc> Trip: I did laugh, yes.
20:03 <Trip> (that was the super-mind-blowing spoiler I was trying to tell you the other day)
20:03 <Uli> unknown peace? Does it use those exact words?
20:03 <becca> Dunc - you remember when we told you there was something you'd NEVER BELIEVE it was so INSANE ad you didn't believe us?
20:03 <becca> That was what we were talking about
20:03 <becca> Uli - something like that I'll go find it
20:03 <Dunc> Yeah, I was expecting way wackier than Daala, though
20:03 <Uli> Like Howard the Daala?
20:03 <Dunc> That was just... "Oh, jesus."
20:03 <Trip> I dunno. Daala's pretty wack.
20:04 <Trip> :P
20:04 <Loyal_Imperial> The nanovirus thing kinda came out of nowhere for me.
20:04 <becca> Oh come on, it might not be unbeatable on the *wacky* front but it was way more un*guessable*
20:04 <Dunc> They set up a lot of stuff. :P
20:04 <becca> come on, you NEVER would have guessed that, not in a billion years
20:04 <Loyal_Imperial> I mean, sure, Denning has his little liking for diseases, but that just seemed bizarre.
20:04 <becca> i actually didn't mind he nanovirus
20:04 <Dunc> Alpha Red: Part Duex.
20:04 <becca> it was a bit random but it worked well enough in the story
20:04 <jawastew> was denning the one that did alpha red?
20:04 <Loyal_Imperial> No, don't think so.
20:05 <Trip> No, that was a major NJO plot point
20:05 <Trip> Walter Jon Williams introduced it
20:05 <Loyal_Imperial> He did do the Killik disease thing, whatever they called it.
20:05 <Trip> But it was planned out long ahead of time
20:05 <becca> The Fizz
20:05 <Loyal_Imperial> That was it, fizz.
20:05 <jawastew> too many njo authors, I couldn't remember
20:05 <becca> I thought the nanovirus was at least in keeping with the setting and provided some sense-making reasons to keep Mirta alive and to provide that threat to the Hapans
20:05 <becca> if we're going to pick on crazy shit, I really wouldn't be picking on that one
20:06 <Loyal_Imperial> Well, yes, but the fact that it wasn't ever mentioned before bugged me.
20:06 <becca> Eh...I'm sort of beyond that being a defining problem for this series. :/
20:06 <Trip> The nanovirus didn't sound terribly implausible, given the descriptions later on
20:06 <Trip> It's not a virus, right?
20:06 <Trip> It's just itty bitty robot thingies?
20:06 <becca> it's like...nanobots that kill you
20:06 <becca> yeah
20:06 <dgxxx> so what about Luke's Force illusion? (Invincible)
20:06 <becca> Oh OY, Luke. Where do we BEGIN with him?
20:07 <Trip> 1) He's evil and needs to die
20:07 <jawastew> luke was weird in this one
20:07 <becca> Luke was DAMN weird
20:07 <Loyal_Imperial> Luke is always weird. He was just weirder than usual this time.
20:07 <Dunc> Trip. >:(
20:07 <becca> Luke was Paul Muad'dib rapidly heading towards Leto II
20:07 <Trip> It had to be said. :P
20:07 <jawastew> hahaha becca
20:07 <becca> *but not evil* and that's what creeped me out most
20:07 <dgxxx> "h doesnt breathe and doesnt blink" why nobody painted a mustache on him :D
20:07 <becca> IT'S TRUE AND YOU KNOW IT!
20:08 <becca> Or put fruit on his head when he wasn't paying attention. Did anyone else used ot do that to sleeping old people?
20:08 <becca> Okay...just me...
20:08 <Loyal_Imperial> No...
20:08 *Dunc snorts
20:08 <dgxxx> no..
20:08 <Dunc> Luke just felt... I don't know.
20:08 <Loyal_Imperial> Unlukelike?
20:08 <becca> But seriously - Blazing white eyes and dialogue that goes, "Mine...mine."
20:08 <Loyal_Imperial> Antilukish?
20:08 <Dunc> I think that's one thing that really suffered from the briefness of the book
20:08 <Trip> When does he say that?
20:08 <becca> where have we seen THAT before. (Not my catch, but a pertinent one nonetheless)
20:08 <becca> Trip - I'll find the quote
20:08 <Trip> What's the context?
20:08 <Dunc> Well, the one thing I actually wanted to read
20:08 <Trip> Okay
20:08 <dgxxx> now I'm in the part when Tahiri is torturing Ben
20:09 <dgxxx> and Shevu
20:09 <jawastew> poor shevu
20:09 <Dunc> HE'S FOURTEEN
20:09 <Dunc> FOUR. TEEN.
20:09 <Trip> haha Shevu
20:09 <jawastew> wait, how old is tahiri now?
20:09 *Trip was pleased to hear he died
20:09 <jawastew> i wanted tahiri to die
20:09 <Trip> Tahiri is... 28
20:09 <Trip> I think
20:09 <Dunc> I don't care how hard Traviss sledghammered the 'growing up' bit.
20:09 <jawastew> eep
20:09 <dgxxx> I want her to have a name
20:09 <Loyal_Imperial> Yep. Think so.
20:09 <dgxxx> "Darth hotness"
20:09 <Dunc> He's FOURTEEN and that scene was... ugh
20:09 <jawastew> pedophilia
20:09 <Dunc> yeah
20:10 <becca> See, I didn't mind that scene. It *was* ugh, but Tahiri didn't actually want to be doing it and I don't think she had any intention of going through with it
20:10 <becca> she was trying to find a way not to torture him
20:10 <Trip> Man
20:10 <dgxxx> wow Tahiri with Force Lighting?
20:10 <Dunc> Becca: Yeah, but it was still skeevy.
20:10 <Trip> I forgot that she was 28
20:10 <jawastew> lame
20:10 <jawastew> lame lame
20:10 <Trip> So did the authors, apparently
20:10 <becca> to be honest, the notion that leading him on is less sick than physical torture is...odd.
20:10 <dgxxx> hey no no don't kill Shevu!
20:10 <becca> Yeah it's skeevy but...I think that's the point. It's a horrible situation that neither of them wants to be in
20:10 <dgxxx> :(
20:11 <dgxxx> It's ur fault Trip
20:11 <Dunc> Shevu was plot fodder from day one
20:11 <Trip> :D
20:11 <jawastew> why can't tahiri be plot fodder?
20:11 <Dunc> Oh, Tahiri is too. IMO
20:11 <jawastew> i don't get what she adds to the series... o.O
20:11 <jawastew> another alema
20:11 <becca> Trip - "There /isn't/," Luke pivoted around and glared down on her with eyes that suddenly looked like a pair of sunsblzing up from a dark well. "And it's not your responsibility to worry about those lives. I'ts mine - /mine/, Jedi Solo. Is that clear?"
20:12 <jawastew> sans lekku...
20:12 <Dunc> Denning loves him some YJK/JJK?
20:12 <dgxxx> boners to Ben
20:12 <Trip> Day-um
20:12 *Dunc smacks dgxxx
20:12 <Trip> Lukie's gone psycho
20:12 <dgxxx> :|
20:12 <Trip> Dunc - he sure has an odd way of showing it
20:12 <becca> Trip - context is that Jaina has just asked if there was a way to avoid having to sacrifice people to keep Luke's visions on the straight and narrow so Caedus didn't get onto his maniuplation of them
20:12 <Trip> :P
20:12 <becca> which, you know, is a GOOD THING TO BE ASKING
20:12 <becca> Jaina's basically like, "Is there a way we can avoid these peopel dying just so I can retain the element of surprise?"
20:12 <Dunc> I dunno. I didn't think SbS was all that, either.
20:13 <McEwok> So, Luke's making crazy psycho calls on the basis of Force visions?
20:13 <Loyal_Imperial> Seems that way.
20:13 <becca> Yes, McEwok.
20:13 <McEwok> And Luke gets all Sith eyes?
20:13 <jawastew> they're just dark
20:13 <McEwok> Oh, bloody FUCKING hell.
20:13 <Loyal_Imperial> Err, glowing, sounds like.
20:13 <McEwok> L_I.
20:13 <Loyal_Imperial> Not Sith eyes.
20:13 *McEwok coughs.
20:13 <becca> Well, his eyes are described as dark, like...very dark most of the time
20:13 <dgxxx> tahiri is going bonkers
20:13 <McEwok> Tatooine GHOST
20:13 <becca> then in *this* moment, they glow bright white
20:13 <becca> like leia's tatooine ghost eyes YES
20:13 <Loyal_Imperial> Oh.
20:13 <Dunc> Luke has to have visions to misdirect Jacen.
20:13 <jawastew> dark glowy spectruum
20:13 <becca> he even says "Mine - mine!"
20:13 <Dunc> It is rather Duneish
20:13 <McEwok> He does, becca?
20:13 <Trip> What really sucks is you know nothing will ever come of it
20:13 <becca> McEwok - read the dialogue I typed
20:14 <becca> "mine - /mine/ Jedi solo, do you understand?"
20:14 <McEwok> Whoah.
20:14 <becca> it *can't* be a coincidence
20:14 <McEwok> No, no way.
20:14 <Trip> I mean, I could almost get excited about Luke going... weird
20:14 <Loyal_Imperial> Wait, what was the Tatooine Ghost vision?
20:14 <McEwok> That's... actually making this make more sense.
20:14 <Trip> Except it'll be dropped
20:14 <Loyal_Imperial> Refresh my memory?
20:14 <Trip> Since they'll never let him go "bad"
20:14 <becca> Trip that is EXACTLY HOW I FEEL
20:14 <McEwok> It's the _Tempest_ vision, part 1.
20:14 <becca> because they cannot possibly go anywhere with this.
20:14 <Trip> McE - also the TG vision
20:14 <Trip> Yeah
20:15 <becca> Leia sees a white-eyed sith lord reaching out and saying, "mine, mine," referring to her children
20:15 <McEwok> Trip, yeah, that's what I meant:...
20:15 <Trip> I've been anti-Luke for forever... I should feel vindicated/excited/whatever
20:15 <McEwok> It's explicitly Luke in TG.
20:15 <Trip> Instead I'm just "meh."
20:15 <Trip> Whatever.
20:15 <Dunc> That was in Tempest, too?
20:15 <McEwok> Yeah. When Jacen was looking at the clouds.
20:15 <Loyal_Imperial> Uh, wow...
20:15 <becca> But for the first time, I *BELIEVE* Luke could go evil. Which makes me wish that 1) they hadn't done that already in DE an 2) they hadn't just DONE their big irredeemable evil thang
20:15 <Loyal_Imperial> Is that...a reference, I see?
20:15 <McEwok> What, LI?
20:15 <becca> Hang on - is it explicity luke in TG?
20:16 <McEwok> Yes, becca.
20:16 *McEwok laughs.
20:16 <Loyal_Imperial> LotF referencing past works done well.
20:16 <becca> I thought it was supposed to be the Emperor...
20:16 <Loyal_Imperial> I am shocked.
20:16 <McEwok> Seriously, you people FORGOT this.
20:16 <jawastew> because TG was forgettable
20:16 <becca> I didn't forget it! I just bought it up!
20:16 <Dunc> I haven't read TG in ages
20:16 <McEwok> No, it's Vader, Palpatine, Luke.
20:16 <becca> I figured you KNEW this!
20:16 <Trip> Here, want me to post the quote?
20:16 <Loyal_Imperial> TG is easy to forget.
20:16 <Trip> From TG?
20:16 <Loyal_Imperial> Sure.
20:16 <McEwok> It's initially foreshadowing for DE.
20:16 <Loyal_Imperial> Supposedly.
20:16 <becca> yes, please do
20:16 <McEwok> Though it was a different set of Sith in TUF.
20:16 <Loyal_Imperial> Seems that's been changed again.
20:16 <Trip> " As Chewbacca worked to raise the proper filters, the static faded from a roar to a crackle, then softened to a hiss, which rose and fell in a sharp rhythm. Puzzled by the odd snickering sound, Leia glanced over at the master comm console and found the reception indicator still scanning for signals. She leaned forward against her crash webbing. "
20:16 <McEwok> Of course, who's White Eyes now? Farmboy? ;)
20:17 <Trip> "Han, do you hear..."
20:17 <Trip> No sound came from her mouth. The snicker became a deep chuckle, and a nebula of black gas began to gather in front of the Falcon. Han showed no reaction to it. Neither did Chewbacca, even when it coalesced into the cowl of a Jedi cloak.
20:17 <Trip> "Han! Don't you see..."
20:17 <Trip> Again, her voice made no sound. Glaring out from beneath the cowl, the twin suns looked more than ever like eyes-heartless eyes, full of malice and power lust. Where the cloud was thin, crooked streaks of purple radiance created the impression of a twisted mouth and wrinkled face.
20:17 <Trip> The mouth rose at the corners. "Mine."
20:17 *sabarte has joined #eu
20:17 <Trip> The voice was cruel and distinct and rife with dark side power. Leia gasped-silently-and tried to raise an arm that had suddenly grown as heavy as the Falcon.
20:17 <Trip> The smile became a sneer. "Mine."
20:17 <Trip> Still, neither Han nor Chewbacca seemed to notice what was happening. Leia would have screamed, had her mouth been willing to obey.
20:17 <Trip> The nebula began to thicken, and the purple wrinkles faded behind its inky veil. The twin suns dimmed to darkness, and the black cloud assumed the shape of a familiar mask-a mask of harsh angles and obsidian sheen, framed by the long, flaring neck apron of an equally black helmet. Vader's helmet.
20:17 <Trip> A chill wave of nausea washed over Leia. The curved eye lenses grew transparent, but instead of the blazing brightness of Tatooine's twin suns-or the angry red-rimmed gaze of Darth Vader-she found herself looking into her brother's soft blue eyes. "Luke! What are you..."
20:17 <Trip> o.O
20:17 <Trip> Holy shit...
20:17 <Trip> It /was/ Luke!
20:17 <Trip> Explicitly!
20:17 <Loyal_Imperial> Wow...
20:17 <Trip> I totally forgot this!
20:17 <Loyal_Imperial> Wait!
20:17 <Loyal_Imperial> Denning did TG, didn't he?
20:17 <Trip> Yeah.
20:18 <becca> I don't think Luke will go evil, but it DOES make me like the notion that the reason Jacen killed Luke in all his future visions was because Luke DID go evil. So Jacen saved the galaxy from Evil Luke, and the white eyes and words are a...holdover in between realities?
20:18 <Loyal_Imperial> Then it *is* him!
20:18 <becca> HOLY SHIT
20:18 <becca> you're right
20:18 <Trip> Her question remained as silent as the others she had asked. Luke's eyes grew hollow and hard and haunted, and the helmet moved slowly from side to side. Blue flickers of electricity snaked across the speech circuits behind the respiratory screen, but his words were rendered nearly inaudible by static crackling. Leia made out something about not following and staying out of darkness; then...
20:18 <Trip> ...Luke fell silent again. She tried to tell him that his equipment was malfunctioning, that his voice had been obscured, but before she could find a way to make herself heard, the helmet stopped moving.
20:18 <Trip> Luke locked gazes and held her transfixed for what might have been seconds... or minutes... his eyes now the lifeless blue of ice. Leia grew cold, and frightened, and the mask dissolved back into the black nothingness of space, leaving her to stare out once again into the mind-stabbing brilliance of the Tatoo system's twin suns.
20:18 <Loyal_Imperial> That's no accidental reference, that was definitely intentional.
20:18 <jawastew> maybe luke saved himself from that vision
20:18 <jawastew> by sending Jaina
20:18 <jawastew> instead of doing the deed himself
20:18 <McEwok> Pff.
20:18 <Trip> It's the prologue to TG, even
20:18 <jawastew> since he saw himself going that direction if he went
20:18 <McEwok> Moral hypocrite.
20:18 <becca> that's probably the boring explanation
20:18 <jawastew> ;)
20:19 <Trip> So... Jacen went "dark" to keep Luke from going "dark..."
20:19 <becca> I think the more interesting one is that this is his Sith Self and he was gettting closer to it during the novel
20:19 <becca> and yeah
20:19 <Trip> And, think about it...
20:19 <becca> I think that Jacen stopped that reality by going dark himself
20:19 <Trip> In SW, /you cannot defeat a vision of the future/
20:19 <Trip> You always make it come true but trying to stop it
20:19 <jawastew> i'm not giving jacen enough credit for that
20:19 <becca> Except that Jacen has
20:19 <Trip> Or has he?
20:19 <becca> Well...not really since the vision did come true after a fact
20:19 <sabarte> He's not killing Luke now, f'shure
20:19 <sabarte> :P
20:19 <Dunc> Always? :P
20:20 <becca> I don't believe that Luke will go bad, but we did get him saying those words and such
20:20 <Trip> Hey, sabs... you guys want Annie to be resurrected
20:20 <Loyal_Imperial> sabarte: Unless he comes back from the dead as a Force Ghost. Marka Ragnos and such.
20:20 <Trip> I'm gonna start a "resurrect Jacen!" club
20:20 <jawastew> he's always in the brink of going bad
20:20 <Trip> :P
20:20 <becca> the problem is, as trip identified, they've FINALLY managed to makeme believe this stuff, but there's *nowhere it can go*
20:20 <sabarte> I don't want him to be resurrected
20:20 <Loyal_Imperial> Why not, becca?
20:20 <Dunc> Zombie Star Wars
20:20 <Trip> Ooh... Maybe Jacen didn't see himself in the vision
20:20 <sabarte> I think the Sal-Solo thing was an obvious and natural opportuinity for him to be cloned and a different character to be created
20:20 <sabarte> "boba", as it were :P
20:20 <Dunc> Aaron would love it. :D
20:20 <Trip> Maybe it was Anakin
20:20 <becca> Because there's no way they can possibly do EvilLuke without hitting the following problems:
20:20 <sabarte> and I'm pissed it didn't happen :P
20:20 <Trip> Killing Luke
20:21 <Trip> Maybe legacy!Luke is Anakin?
20:21 <becca> 1) he'd have to be redeemed which would cheapen the whole thing from the outset: no real sense of danger
20:21 <Loyal_Imperial> Not really.
20:21 <Dunc> And again: DE
20:21 <Loyal_Imperial> But continue.
20:21 <becca> no - dude, there is *no way* they'd let him be evil forever
20:21 <Trip> LI - do you /really/ think LFL would let Luke go dark and die?
20:21 <becca> 2) they already did this in DE so it would cheapen the whole thing if it wasn't "for real"
20:21 <Trip> Or just go dark?
20:21 <Loyal_Imperial> All he has to do is isolate himself on Tatooine and go hermit style to avoid contaminating the galaxy with his dark power.
20:21 <Loyal_Imperial> Gets him out of the picture, and they never have to write his death.
20:21 <becca> 3) they just *did* the "main character goes evil and gets killed" epic plot. they can't immediately repeat that.
20:21 <sabarte> Plus he's a force ghost in Legacy
20:22 <sabarte> and fairly farmboy-like still
20:22 <McEwok> Or a Force-projection?
20:22 <jawastew> GL did it... LoTF did it...
20:22 <Dunc> We need a break. :P
20:22 <becca> I mean, really, 9-book series about Jacen goin gevil and dying, let's follow it up with a 9-book series abotu LUKE doing the SAME THING!
20:22 <Loyal_Imperial> sabarte: Two words, Anakin Skywalker.
20:22 <becca> But if they ignore the characterisation in Invincible, then...that's a crying shame
20:22 <becca> and to be hoenst, if they just show Luke "having worked through it," I'm also...gonna be disappointed.
20:22 <Dunc> Maybe we'll finally get an intropective-Luke book
20:23 <Trip> Is that even Luke?
20:23 <becca> it's...a painted-in corner, even though it's *stellar* within the novel itself.
20:23 <Trip> In Legacy?
20:23 <Trip> They never say his name, do they?
20:23 <Dunc> IF (please) they quit it with the big series and just give us standalones
20:23 <Dunc> MF the first...
20:23 <becca> Well, MF at least mentions Luke trying to work out why Jacen went bad
20:23 <becca> we *might* get some sort of revelation there
20:23 <Dunc> Then a Luke and Ben book...
20:24 <becca> Jaina book is needed
20:24 <Dunc> Then something else (probably Fett)
20:24 <dgxxx> they have to explore more the new Jaina
20:24 <Dunc> Jag and Jaina... Zekk...
20:24 <jawastew> Invincible was like a jaina book
20:24 <becca> Yeah, but in terms of post-INvincible standalones
20:24 <becca> plus the way it was written, she's *assumed* the mantle of the sword by killing jacen, not fulfilled that prophecy
20:24 <Uli> Regarding Legacy Luke
20:25 <Uli> Perhaps... if we assume he *did* go dark
20:25 <Uli> When Cade says;
20:25 <Uli> "And that's not a good place for a Skywalker to be *is it*?" takes on a different light?
20:25 <Dunc> Interesting
20:25 <becca> But I just...I can't compute DR actually having Luke go dark. My brain refuses.
20:25 <Uli> Also luke's assertion that: "I know all about the dark side. More than you."
20:25 <Loyal_Imperial> I can.
20:25 <becca> At *this* point, despite how awesome it is in the novel itself, I don't think darkluke is a great idea for the franchise
20:25 <Loyal_Imperial> It makes sense, if one takes it as a way for them to avoid killing him off.
20:25 <McEwok> They've stretched it for too long, though.
20:26 <becca> mainly because LOTF showed they have no capacity to write subtle and note-entirely-evil darkness
20:26 <McEwok> Can we have a poll: who thinks Luke is *already* Dark?
20:26 <becca> Me
20:26 <Trip> Ooh ooh me!
20:26 <Loyal_Imperial> Me.
20:26 <Uli> I don't know
20:26 <Trip> :P
20:26 <Uli> abstain
20:26 *McEwok three
20:26 <Dunc> abstain
20:26 <becca> It's like I said - he's Leto II from DUNE.
20:26 <dgxxx> aye
20:26 <Kobe> Luke is a chair
20:26 <Kobe> :p
20:26 <becca> so that's five yes and two abstains and one chair...
20:26 <Uli> The Siege Perilous?
20:26 <Trip> Well, I don't necessarily mean "dark"
20:27 <McEwok> So... three dark, two abstain, two Leto II, and one chair.
20:27 <Trip> I think it's a silly descriptor anyway
20:27 <Dunc> The YJK quotes
20:27 <Trip> I do think he's, you know
20:27 <dgxxx> hey what about that Invincible book?
20:27 <McEwok> "Eeeeevil"? :P
20:27 <Trip> /bad/
20:27 <becca> And if they want to write him that way, then awesome, but that type of character doesn't really exist in SW
20:27 <Loyal_Imperial> Five dark, McEwok.
20:27 <becca> Okay - Jaina!
20:27 <Dunc> JACEN'S BAD JOKES
20:27 <Loyal_Imperial> She's on the cover.
20:27 <Dunc> They just made me want him to die even more
20:27 <Loyal_Imperial> She uses her lightsaber like a broom.
20:28 <becca> Can I point out that she applied the same pick-and-choose approach to Luke's Jedi Advice as she does to the Mando Advice and for EXACTLY THE SAME REASONS?
20:28 <Loyal_Imperial> You can.
20:28 <becca> And also yes, she uses her lightsaber as a broom. It was very fantasia.
20:28 <jawastew> the jokes were always bad
20:28 *becca points this out
20:28 <jawastew> 14... 30whatever
20:28 <Dunc> I know. But still. Jacen was never cool.
20:28 <Dunc> NEVER
20:28 <Loyal_Imperial> A pity, really.
20:28 <becca> He was cool in Traitor!
20:28 <Trip> liar
20:28 <Dunc> Why mourn? At least they got some use out of him
20:28 <dgxxx> he won the Vong war
20:28 <dgxxx> :P
20:28 <Trip> ( @ dunc )
20:28 <jawastew> he was cool in traitor
20:29 <jawastew> and then it's all downhill from there
20:29 <becca> but was he *cool* while doing it? Was he wearing Sunglasses and a Leather Jacket?
20:29 <Uli> Jacen and Jaina went up the hill?
20:29 <Loyal_Imperial> His term as Sith Lord was his big chance, but it never really went anywhere.
20:29 <Loyal_Imperial> He was always too human.
20:29 <becca> I loved the scene where he killed Isolder
20:29 *Uli blames the authors describing Jacen dossing about reading magazines
20:30 <jawastew> poor isolder
20:30 <jawastew> people died left and right
20:30 <Loyal_Imperial> Yes, that did come to mind when writing that, Uli.
20:30 <becca> that scene was...the way he always should have been portrayed
20:30 *Trip blames the authors making Jacen the most insecure and needy Sith Lord ever
20:30 <Uli> Didn't sacrifice have in him the bath, too?
20:30 <Trip> And by authors I mean Traviss
20:30 <becca> *he doesn't want to kill him*
20:30 <Loyal_Imperial> Think so, Uli.
20:30 <Uli> Or was that some crazy fanfic I read
20:30 <becca> in the bath EATING TAKE AWAY and drawing pictures in the STEAM
20:30 *Dunc snorts
20:30 <Uli> I remember him playing with tassels, in a bath
20:30 <Loyal_Imperial> Darth Mundane.
20:30 <Trip> Are you guys serious.
20:30 <Uli> and I was like: "wait, what?"
20:30 <McEwok> Sounds like _Bloodlines_.
20:30 <Dunc> The tassels just vanished, didn't they?
20:30 <Loyal_Imperial> Yes, Trip.
20:31 <becca> No, I think it was Sacrifice
20:31 <Loyal_Imperial> We are.
20:31 <Loyal_Imperial> Sadly.
20:31 <Trip> Gah.
20:31 <Uli> I mean, Perry had Vader naked
20:31 <dgxxx> the tassels were just.. er..
20:31 <Dunc> Ben was looking at mags in Bloodlines
20:31 <dgxxx> nothing
20:31 <becca> I KNOW WHAT YOU SAW! /RD
20:31 <Trip> I thought Leia and Mara discussing low-fat food was bad enough.
20:31 <Dunc> wait, what?
20:31 <McEwok> The tassels were... completely different in the first two novels, and dropped due to incoherence.
20:31 <McEwok> ?
20:31 <Dunc> Maybe.
20:31 <Loyal_Imperial> Well, that I have no problem with, but the Evil Overlord should not be discussing magazines or taking baths where the reader can see him.
20:31 <Uli> the hassle with tassels
20:31 <Trip> In /Sacrifice,/ Dunc
20:31 <Dunc> I don't mind the magazine thing
20:31 <becca> Well, when planning to murder one's sister-in-law's son, calorie contents is DEATHLY important
20:32 <Dunc> The bath was a bit... :\
20:32 <McEwok> Okay... I gotta go...
20:32 <Loyal_Imperial> Night, McEwok.
20:32 <becca> Bye McEwok!
20:32 <Uli> night McE
20:32 <Dunc> Calorie counts is a bit much
20:32 <becca> Remember how insane Luke is now!
20:32 <becca> Dunc - I do't think they mentioned calories, just "low fat" or something
20:32 <Dunc> ..okay
20:32 <Trip> Bye, McE
20:32 <McEwok> Who knows?
20:32 <McEwok> Who cares?
20:32 <McEwok> ;)
20:32 <dgxxx> night
20:32 *McEwok has quit IRC
20:33 <becca> But really, guys, am I the only one who liked that Isolder scene? I liked how Jacen was portrayed there.
20:33 <Dunc> I like the Isolder scene
20:33 <Trip> "Let's find a stupidly expensive restaurant and forget the fat content."
20:33 *Havac has joined #eu
20:33 *ChanServ sets mode: +o Havac
20:33 <becca> It was really *interesting* for once. Jacen was...more like in Betrayal. He really didn't want to kill Isolder, and tried really hard not to
20:33 <Trip> (Leia)
20:33 <becca> Hav!
20:33 <Trip> That's what I was thinking of
20:33 <becca> you're late for the chat!
20:33 <Loyal_Imperial> Evening, Havac.
20:33 <Dunc> Poor guy got more dignity going out than he ever did in COPL
20:33 <Trip> Also, Jacen orders low-fat take-out for his bathtub scene
20:33 <Havac> Hey.
20:33 <becca> True, he was made into a good character there
20:34 <Dunc> Trip: Oh, that's not so bad
20:34 <becca> Trip, yes he does
20:34 <Dunc> The resturant thing. I remember the takeout
20:34 <Loyal_Imperial> Which page was this again, just out of curiosity?
20:34 <Trip> Yeah, it's not as bad as I was lead to believe
20:34 <Loyal_Imperial> Isolder, that is.
20:34 <Uli> I think that sort of stuff is pretty bad
20:34 <Trip> Stumble told me low-fat is talked about like fifteen times
20:34 <Uli> it's fanfic material, not novel material. IMO.
20:34 <Trip> She tends to exaggerate
20:34 <Dunc> Maybe so.
20:34 <Uli> the novels should focus on the epic
20:34 <Dunc> It's not like Naboo or anything
20:34 <Uli> the mythic
20:34 <Uli> not the mundane
20:34 <Dunc> Speaking of... EXPOSITION
20:35 <Uli> the mundane can be left to the fan's imaginations
20:35 <Trip> I don't mind the mundane
20:35 <Trip> except when it's lame
20:35 <Uli> going to the shitter is the same for everyone
20:35 <sabarte> =YES.
20:35 <becca> mundlame
20:35 <Havac> I like the mundane.
20:35 <sabarte> mythic, not mundane
20:35 <Dunc> How often do we have to hear about Han and Leia and how they're Jaina's parents and they're fab?
20:35 <Havac> You just have to have the mythic too.
20:35 <Uli> The mundane just... doesn't work.
20:35 <becca> many times.
20:35 <Dunc> This is the last book of a nine-book series. WE KNOW.
20:35 <becca> but honestly, i didn't mind it too much on account of i missed leia and han.
20:35 <Uli> It'd be like... like seeing Luke going to throw up after his fight wiht Vader
20:35 <Uli> it's unnecessary
20:36 <becca> plus I thougth it was hilarious that Jaina got outflirted by her sixty year old MOM
20:36 <Trip> Probably because Han & Leia (mostly Leia) are dreadful parents?
20:36 <Uli> and it's obvious padding in novels
20:36 <Dunc> I really hate exposition, period. I was able to overlook it in, say, Betrayal
20:36 <Havac> Becca: that was more Denning oddness.
20:36 <becca> I KNOW
20:36 <Trip> So Denning had to convince us that they're not?
20:36 <Dunc> But by now? WE KNOW.
20:36 <becca> But it at least made me arch an eyebrow and laugh
20:36 <jawastew> for the people that picked up EU at LoTF?
20:36 <Dunc> Less telling, more showing
20:36 <Havac> Denning does that kind of stuff a lot.
20:36 <becca> Hav - you missed it earlier, but you know how luke has blazing white eyes and says "mine - mine"?
20:36 <Havac> Yeah.
20:36 <Dunc> Becca: He can read the log
20:37 <becca> and how there was talk about the TG vision?
20:37 <Dunc> We've moved on.
20:37 <Trip> Yeah, the TG vision is Luke, explicitly
20:37 <Havac> Yeah, I saw that.
20:37 <Havac> It was . . . a cool twist.
20:37 <becca> ah - well read the log then, but basically yeah - Luke. :/
20:37 <becca> yeah, cool enough to mention before returning to the surreality of sixty year old hooker leia...
20:37 <Havac> I didn't mind Luke, really.
20:38 <Havac> He just had this awesome sort of wizard war thing going on against Jacen. Like, constant mental warfare.
20:38 <becca> I LOVED Luke. I just...I hate that none of this'll be picked up on in later books, I don't think.
20:38 <becca> eh, he was weird.
20:38 <Trip> Also, evil.
20:38 <becca> He kept giving Jaina Mando advice.
20:38 <Havac> You always say that, Trip.
20:38 <dgxxx> ok back Crusade is over
20:38 <Uli> Whoa
20:38 <Trip> :P
20:38 <becca> Whoa?
20:38 <Uli> Luke is going Gandalf when Gandalf was going weird?
20:39 <Uli> Wasn't there a bit where Gandalf went really weird?
20:39 <becca> when did Gandalf go weird?
20:39 <Uli> I only ever read LotR once
20:39 <becca> no, he just fought a balrog and died
20:39 <dgxxx> when he was Gandalf the white
20:39 <Dunc> gray
20:39 <becca> then came back. he never went weird.
20:39 <Uli> Didn't he... like become really withdrawn and moody for a while after looking into the orb thing
20:39 <Havac> He doesn't really go that weird.
20:39 <Uli> and scary
20:39 <becca> no
20:39 <Uli> damn
20:39 <Havac> The Palantir? No.
20:39 <Dunc> Galadrial?
20:40 <Uli> I remember her, because the film freaked me the shit out, but that's not what I was thinking of.
20:40 <dgxxx> oh The Clone Wars made the local news :D
20:40 <Dunc> "All shall love me and despair!"
20:40 <Trip> Gandalf went evil, yeah
20:40 <becca> So what do we all make of Jaina, then, and her "drawing on love," schtick?
20:40 <Uli> Was it enar the beginning?
20:40 <Havac> It didn't bother me.
20:40 <Trip> No, it's in the second book
20:40 <Trip> after he dies
20:40 <becca> oh, me either
20:40 <Havac> Love is the candle that . . . . whatever whatever.
20:40 <Trip> then he comes back and is evil and stuff
20:40 <becca> i certainly don't think she went dark or anything so silly
20:40 <Trip> But nobody notices
20:40 <Uli> okay
20:40 <Trip> except me
20:40 <becca> the text was fairly clear in its intentions to be portraying her as doing the "right" thing
20:40 <Trip> I noticed
20:40 <Trip> :|
20:41 <becca> but I think it's interesting that she goes against Luke's explicit instructions?
20:41 <Trip> What were Luke's instructions?
20:41 <Uli> Heh
20:41 <Uli> you know, re; Jaina and love
20:41 <Uli> anyone else got the He-Man She-Ra movie song in their head now?
20:41 <becca> he goes on and on about not letting herself be ruled by emotions of either extreme
20:41 <becca> goes on this whole jag about attachments and how her worrying for her parents is bad she has to trust them to tdo their job
20:42 <becca> and how if she does let herself get rules by love or hate she might end up evil
20:42 <Trip> Ah.
20:42 <Trip> Thanks.
20:42 <becca> to be honest, Jaina is not Luke and Jacen is not Lumiya.
20:42 *sabarte just doesn't like Denning's take on the EU.
20:42 <becca> I'm not sure that Luke was aware of that though...
20:42 <sabarte> It's not...heroic monomyth enough :P
20:42 <Uli> http://youtube.com/watch?v=p8ZcmMK64Ok She-Ra as Jaina? :P
20:42 <Havac> I think that Luke was saying whatever he felt he needed to say to get the right result.
20:43 <becca> sabs - that's why we have legacy! :p
20:43 <Uli> He-Man as ... Jacen?
20:43 <becca> I'm not sure how I feel about that though?
20:43 <Trip> Legacy. Feh.
20:43 <dgxxx> dead He-Man
20:43 <sabarte> It's just...
20:43 <Trip> How dare they tie the hands of the novels.
20:43 <Havac> So he doesn't want her to get completely overwhelmed by love, so he warns her strongly enough to make just enough of a point?
20:43 <sabarte> I'd almost like it better if Denning was forced to write in the PT era :P
20:43 <sabarte> exclusively
20:43 <becca> I dunno, that scene came off a little creepy to me, but I think the bigger reason I'm picking up on it
20:44 <becca> is that Jaina considers and discards his advice on enteiring the battlefield, then follows it later
20:44 <becca> she makes judgement calls that *exactly* mirror her thought processes when deciding whether or not to pay attention to Mando advice on being detached
20:44 *Hav has joined #eu
20:45 <becca> And...if Luke is telling her what he wants in order to get the result he wants, regardless of what's most *healthy* for her that's...an interesting point to note?
20:46 <becca> I dunno. The whole thing is just a bit weird in my head.
20:46 <jawastew> i got that whole.. everyone is a pawn of luke's grand scheme feeling
20:46 <becca> So, votes: BattleSun Odyssey - shout out to Battlestar Galactica?
20:46 <Dunc> Totally
20:46 <becca> Jawa - So did I, absolutely. I'mjust...not sure how to feel about that?
20:46 <Loyal_Imperial> Yep.
20:46 <Hav> Obnoxious.
20:46 <Trip> Ew
20:46 <jawastew> it made me uncomfortable, 1 because i really like luke! and 2 that's.. creepy...
20:46 <becca> the shout out or the pawns thing?
20:46 <Trip> what now?
20:46 <Hav> I prefer it when people can at least be subtle about their allusions.
20:46 *Rob has joined #eu
20:47 <Trip> BattleSun Odyssey?
20:47 <becca> Fair dos. I kinda liked it cus it was a one-time amusing thing
20:47 <Dunc> Yeah, if it becomes a running joke...
20:47 <becca> Trip: Leia snarks when someone says to distract Caedus, "what are we supposed to do, beam down the latest episode of BattleSun Odyssey," or something
20:47 <Dunc> But just for a one-off, it was cute.
20:48 <Trip> Ew
20:48 <Loyal_Imperial> Uh, yeah...
20:48 <Loyal_Imperial> Too obvious.
20:48 <Trip> That's just dumb
20:48 *Havac has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds.)
20:48 <Trip> But then, I liked /The Voyages of the VSD Protector/... :P
20:48 *Hav is now known as Havac
20:48 <dgxxx> the hell? cantina t heme?
20:48 <becca> You know, I kind of wish that Jaina had actually gotten to use her shatterpoint ability after she learned it...
20:48 <Uli> Haha
20:49 <jawastew> why did she learn it?
20:49 <Uli> Kara "Starkiller" Thrace?
20:49 <Trip> Oh yeah, I wanted to ask about that...
20:49 <Havac> That was odd.
20:49 <dgxxx> ohh Ben
20:49 <Havac> I only noticed after I was finished that . . . she never used it.
20:49 <Trip> Did Denning screw up shatterpoints as much as I've heard?
20:49 <becca> Cus Luke offered and you don't turn that kind of thing down?
20:49 <jawastew> chapter filler!
20:49 <Havac> It would have been awesome if she could see Jacen's shatterpoint, but . . . it was completely irrelevant.
20:49 <jawastew> totally useless!
20:49 <jawastew> yes
20:49 <jawastew> yes it was
20:49 <becca> Trip, nto really, he just only spoke about the physical application
20:49 <becca> It could have been a great endgame to the duel with Jacen
20:49 <becca> yeah, exactly
20:49 <Dunc> Chapter filler for a book that otherwise... had no filler
20:50 <Dunc> Weird.
20:50 <becca> like at the end, when she makes amove that she knows will kill him but that he can't counter either
20:50 <Trip> I don't recall Mace ever really using at in a literal sense...
20:50 <becca> ...couldn't that have been a shatterpoint type moment?
20:50 <Havac> Yeah. Denning also did seem to misunderstand it.
20:50 <jawastew> jacen's death was so anti climatic
20:50 <Havac> To be about physical shatterpoints rather than the shatterpoints of events.
20:50 <dgxxx> huh? Why is Ben ordering drinks like James Bond?
20:50 <jawastew> to get a hot date
20:50 <Loyal_Imperial> Skywalker. Ben Skywalker?
20:50 <becca> no, neither do I, but I also don't find that I have a problem with it being literal too
20:50 <Havac> God, that was creepy.
20:50 <Loyal_Imperial> Too many references.
20:50 <Havac> Denning and his twentysomething women hitting on 14-year-old boys.
20:51 <Havac> That was just pervy.
20:51 <Trip> Denning's really random...
20:51 <becca> in my head I'm just pretending that Ben looks about 17... :/
20:51 <becca> like, I don't mind Tahiri so much because that whole situation was screwed up and she didn't actually *mean* it
20:51 <Havac> Yeah . . . .
20:51 <becca> I also tend to assume that the Zel twins are largely just being playful and teasing him to wind him up for a laugh
20:52 <jawastew> yeah
20:52 <jawastew> i agree...
20:52 <Dunc> The twins would have been less creepy if it hadn't been for the Tahiri scene
20:52 <Trip> I don't get why they went with the condensed timeline, if they wanted to do stuff like this...
20:52 <Trip> Not that it matters to me
20:52 <Havac> Well, yeah, the twins are just those people who flirt with everyone as a shtick.
20:52 <Havac> But it's still creepy.
20:52 <Havac> Especially with Time and Earthknight around.
20:52 <Dunc> They were clearly harmless (to Ben) but after... ugh.
20:52 <becca> I honestly find Luke acting like his son IS an adult to be creepier.
20:52 <jawastew> the shower scene was the creepiest for me
20:52 <Dunc> Well, Luke isn't hitting on him.
20:52 <dgxxx> Red hair twins with Ben!
20:53 <becca> EEEW!
20:53 *Movus has joined #eu
20:53 <jawastew> sonisteam or whatever
20:53 <sabarte> as I've said many times
20:53 <dgxxx> *with
20:53 <Dunc> That's an important factor.
20:53 <sabarte> complete lack of forward planning in the EU
20:53 <Trip> Luke considers Ben an adult?
20:53 <Dunc> Hi, Movus
20:53 <becca> Well he repeatedly references him as a Jedi Knight
20:53 <jawastew> Ben says something to that effect
20:53 <Movus> Hi!
20:53 <jawastew> "Thanks for not treating me like a kid"
20:53 <jawastew> blah blah blah
20:53 <jawastew> at the end
20:53 <Trip> 9_9
20:53 <becca> he sends him into a situation where he KNOWS his son will get captured by the GAG because his son made him promise not to give him special treatment
20:53 <Trip> It fits, anyway
20:53 <jawastew> pawn
20:54 <becca> the kid is 14. I don't care what he's done, he's a KID.
20:54 <Trip> Luke can't really handle responsibility
20:54 <Trip> of that sort
20:54 <Dunc> Is that any different than Anakin Solo?
20:54 <becca> He needs a PARENT.
20:54 <dgxxx> why is everyone hittin on Ben? _:P
20:54 <Trip> He's always been like that
20:54 <Dunc> I mean, really?
20:54 <becca> Yes, because Anakin was 16 and everyone kept mentioning that he oughtn't be doing what he's doing.
20:54 <Havac> I don't see a problem.
20:54 <jawastew> only difference dunc, it's his son
20:54 <Trip> Yeah
20:54 <Loyal_Imperial> Me neither.
20:54 <becca> and was 17 by the time he led a mission and even then it was...dubious and that was *discussed*
20:54 <Havac> Obi-Wan was going on missions younger.
20:54 <Movus> In the YJK books, they were all doing as much as Ben is doing at the same age......
20:54 <Trip> With Anakin, it was at least acknowledged
20:54 <becca> It's less that he's going on missions in dangerous environments
20:54 <Havac> Anakin was 14 when he was slicing through Vong on Ithor.
20:54 <jawastew> they did crazy things in the Jedi Academy trilogy
20:55 <becca> I have no problem iwth that
20:55 <jawastew> at like.. 2
20:55 <becca> he was 15, but that's not my problem.
20:55 <Trip> Hav - sixteen
20:55 <Trip> Fifteen, yeah
20:55 <Trip> sorry
20:55 <becca> I KNOW that Ben will be having adventures, that's all fine
20:55 <becca> it's that he gets knighted and effectively, apparently, made independent that bothers me
20:55 *Movus is now known as marasolo
20:55 <Uli> Ben spoke as a man before council before his fifteenth year day - he's Conan.
20:55 <Trip> Like I said, though... it does fit Luke's character
20:55 <sabarte> well, you know
20:55 *Uli pre-empts Hav
20:55 <Uli> NOT CANON CONAN
20:55 <Trip> D'you remember when he knighted all the YJK in Destiny's Way?
20:55 <sabarte> they wiped out the YJK generation as protaganists to a man
20:55 <sabarte> so
20:55 <marasolo> Conan was kind of funny though
20:56 <Trip> Just... because?
20:56 *sabarte shrugs
20:56 <becca> with the solo kids there was discussion about how they were too young. And Anakin was running off without permission or getting into situations he shoudln't be in
20:56 <Trip> To get them out of his hair, I guess?
20:56 <becca> then at 17 he leads a mission everyone's...dubious about
20:56 <Trip> Even all of them were confused as hell
20:56 <becca> so yeah, it's the fact that he's been Knighted and is off on his own, rather than as a guy under training that bugs me
20:56 <Havac> I would have strongly preferred that he spend more time as an apprentice.
20:57 <Trip> *any time
20:57 <becca> that kid's been through hell, he needs a parent figure.
20:57 <sabarte> They wouldn't have had to do ridiculous "early adulthood" stuff if they'd sanely spaced generations.
20:57 <becca> and *ntohing* in that novel would have needed changing if Ben were referred to as Apprentice Skywalker not Jedi Skywalker. He still could have been sent on the missions he's sent on.
20:57 *becca will drop her pet peeve now
20:57 <jawastew> becca, I think that's what REALLY bothers me about luke using people as pawns... even his kid isn't safe from it
20:58 <becca> yeah, that too
20:58 <Trip> I think what really bothers me is that at this point they're all but yelling LUKE IS A BAD MAN
20:58 <Trip> And people still think he's a perfect hero
20:59 <Trip> (In Lit I mean)
20:59 <becca> and, i have no idea if that's what they're trying to yell.
20:59 <marasolo> Invincible could have used more of what was going on inside Luke's head I think
20:59 <sabarte> ...yeah
20:59 <becca> i actually don't think that he's a bad man. I think that he's...confusing.
20:59 <jawastew> i still like luke..
20:59 <becca> like, I don't believe he's trying to do anything inherently evil. He's *saving* people.
20:59 <sabarte> I think they don't know how to write him.
20:59 <becca> But he's also creeping me out something chronic.
20:59 <Trip> I don't think he's evil. I never really have.
20:59 <jawastew> i think we've needed luke introspection for quite a few books now
21:00 <Trip> I think he's a hypocrite. I think he lacks almost any sort of empathy whatsoever.
21:00 <marasolo> He was totally on the verge of being all evil this time around
21:00 <Trip> I think he's very self-centered.
21:00 <becca> I think the problem is that Luke's character changed mightily between ESB and ROTJ, and ROTJ Luke isn't the farmboy we all want to read about
21:00 <jawastew> err, yeah but he's got more coherence as a character in the trilogy than in the EU
21:00 <sabarte> No, I want to read about ROTJ Luke grown up.
21:00 <Trip> Eh, Luke was kind of a dick in ESB, even
21:01 <sabarte> I'm just not sure the EU has nailed him.
21:01 <marasolo> This was very ROTJ luke, wasn't it? Like you don't know what or why he does stuff
21:01 <Trip> remember when he went AWOL?
21:01 <Trip> Without telling anyone?
21:01 <Uli> AWORY?
21:01 <Uli> damn, missed the L
21:01 *Uli curses
21:01 <becca> Okay, sabs - fair point. I guess what I mean is that it's harder to write ROTJ Luke? He's more complicated? *he's* the one they're getting wrong?
21:01 *RF has joined #eu
21:01 *ChanServ sets mode: +o RF
21:01 <becca> Trip in BFC?
21:01 <becca> I'm readin ghtat now
21:01 <marasolo> I always like the beginning of ROTJ when he gives the droids over to Jabba, very wtf for them
21:01 <Trip> No, in ESB
21:01 <becca> Oh, right
21:01 <Trip> When he goes to Dagobah
21:01 <Trip> He's a squadron commander.
21:01 <Loyal_Imperial> Evening, RF.
21:01 <RF> ESB is on right now.
21:01 <sabarte> Yeah.
21:01 <Trip> And he /sneaks off without telling anyone./
21:01 <RF> Hey.
21:02 <becca> Hey RF! Welcome to the Invincible Chat!
21:02 <RF> :p
21:02 <sabarte> I think I, Jedi did a good job
21:02 <becca> we shoudl probably get back on topic...
21:02 <Trip> He even lies to Wedge.
21:02 <RF> Yeah, he does.
21:02 <RF> That rat.
21:02 <Trip> "Oh yeah, Wedge, sure, I'll meet you at the rendezvous."
21:02 <dgxxx> Ben is with the Hapan girls
21:02 <Trip> This is not something a responsible CO does.
21:02 <jawastew> they've been grappling how to make luke into some jedi grand master
21:02 <jawastew> the transition period has been long and unsuccessful
21:02 <sabarte> Yeah.
21:02 *Trip will shut up about Luke now.
21:02 <sabarte> Well, actually
21:02 <sabarte> they've been trying to kill him
21:03 <sabarte> and never getting permission
21:03 <becca> you'd think they'd have given up by now
21:03 <Trip> Heh.
21:03 <sabarte> so there's this endless cycle of "We can't kill Luke so let's kill X instead"
21:03 <Trip> Maybe that's why the make him meaner and meaner.
21:03 <Trip> More and more unlikeable.
21:03 <jawastew> he's supposed to rebuild the jedi order and nothin's working in that direction
21:03 <Trip> There's a shadow-war between the licensees and the bigwigs.
21:03 <becca> So I have to admit, I was more affected by Jaina holding Jacen's corpse than I thought I would...
21:03 <jawastew> jedis dying left and right, goign to the dark side
21:03 <Trip> Eventually, one of them will break!
21:03 <RF> Conspiracy theory?
21:03 <RF> :p
21:03 <becca> yeah, plus he keeps rebuilding it more and more liek the OJO which...failed.
21:04 <becca> it's a sort of weird metatextual issue - as we find out more about the OJO, we make Luke's JO more like it!
21:04 <jawastew> they do that with everything though
21:04 <Trip> Well, to be fair, his NJO was pretty fucked up right at the beginning
21:04 <RF> I think that's because the authors see the PT, and they're like "woah" and then they put stuff into the NJO.
21:04 <marasolo> Which I hate!
21:04 <dgxxx> Double X?
21:04 <jawastew> as the PT stuff comes into light, it's wormed into the EU
21:04 <becca> ditto
21:04 <jawastew> as if it's always been there
21:04 <RF> Yes.
21:04 <sabarte> I don't know
21:04 <RF> That gets annoying.
21:04 <sabarte> The YJK generation is gone
21:04 <becca> It doesn't make sense either
21:04 <jawastew> and it's irritating
21:04 <RF> The PT doesn't have to be everywhere.
21:04 <sabarte> Ben doesn't -have- a generation
21:04 <sabarte> Yes.
21:04 <becca> I miss mulitcoloured lightsabers!
21:04 <dgxxx> who's double x?
21:04 <sabarte> The PT needs to stay in the PT
21:05 <jawastew> yes
21:05 <jawastew> it does
21:05 <Trip> Eh
21:05 <becca> dgx - the torture droid
21:05 <dgxxx> oh
21:05 <Trip> Again, i think it makes some sense
21:05 <Trip> IU
21:05 <jawastew> suddenly naboo is everywhere
21:05 <jawastew> and shatterpoint, REALLY?
21:05 <jawastew> come on
21:05 <becca> yeah, because they find out more and mimic it, but that just shows that they're sheeeeep.
21:05 <Trip> The NJO was originally modeled on the KotOR-era order
21:05 <Trip> From Arca & Nomi's time
21:05 <becca> I liked the shatterpoint thing! the only thing wrong with it is that Jaina never used it in her final duel with Jacen!
21:05 <RF> Shatterpoints are as old as the ANH Radio Drama...
21:05 <Trip> Which... was pretty godawful
21:05 <becca> Oh I love that thing!
21:05 <RF> Mace Windu style Shatterpoints, I mean.
21:05 <RF> Vader mentions them.
21:06 <RF> Though he doesn't call them shatterpoints.
21:06 <becca> in his awesome RD voice.
21:06 <jawastew> that's why I don't like it.. she didn't even use it
21:06 <Trip> So it makes sense that Luke would adopt stuff from the Ruusan Order as he finds out about it.
21:06 <jawastew> so it was just put in there
21:06 <jawastew> to have it in there
21:06 <RF> So Obi-wan's death may be a shatterpoint.
21:06 <RF> Which I really like.
21:06 <Trip> RF - apparently (from what I'm told) Denning's shatterpoints are literal
21:06 <RF> Yes.
21:06 <Trip> Like, Luke can shatter stuff.
21:06 <RF> I know.
21:06 <Trip> 9_9
21:06 <RF> But I'm talking real shatterpoints. :p
21:06 <RF> Force Shatterpoints.
21:06 <becca> I think that perhaps he put it in there in an effort to power up Jaina a bit, to start getting her some respec' and jedi street cred
21:06 <RF> Vader calls it a "nexus in the Force" or something like that.
21:07 <becca> but really, she sould have used it against jacen
21:07 <Trip> Yeah, I remember that.
21:07 <marasolo> Vader liked his drama
21:07 <jawastew> probably becca
21:07 <becca> yeah, a nexus in the force with many possible futures or something
21:07 <Uli> RDarth Vader is my father
21:07 <jawastew> if she had exploded jacen
21:07 <Uli> I hope
21:07 <jawastew> into a million pieces
21:07 <becca> RadioDramaVader > ALL THINGS EVER
21:07 <jawastew> that would have been good
21:07 <becca> Uli: And mine.
21:07 *Uli high fives
21:07 <marasolo> There wouldn't have been anything for her to hold dramatically though
21:07 <becca> You should change our family tree to reflect this.
21:07 <jawastew> the pieces!
21:07 <Uli> I have
21:07 <Trip> ANHRadioDramaVader > All things ever
21:07 <becca> yay!
21:07 <Trip> :P
21:07 <Uli> that's what it already says
21:08 <Uli> ESB RadioDramaVader is awesome too
21:08 <becca> Trip - okay, amendment accepted though he was still cool in ESB
21:08 <Trip> Eh, he was too spazzy for me
21:08 <becca> marasolo: the Shatterpoint ability ought to apply to moments in time and people too
21:08 <becca> this si the first time it'sonly been used on items
21:08 <Trip> Not laconic enough
21:08 <Uli> "ASTROIDS DO NOT CONCERN ME ADMIRAL! I want that SHIP not excussesssss!"
21:08 <marasolo> That'd be cool
21:08 <becca> so she could have seen the shatterpoint of the fight, for instnace
21:08 <marasolo> Ahhhh
21:08 <Uli> Red hot angry Vader was awesome.
21:08 <becca> brb
21:09 <Trip> marasolo - basically, shatterpoints are not what Denning thinks they are. :P
21:09 <Trip> Although they are now.
21:09 <Trip> I guess.
21:09 <marasolo> Neither of us got the memo on it :-P
21:09 <Uli> all he did was extend the meaning
21:09 <Uli> *shrug*
21:09 <Uli> you can see them in the Force and in physical objects now
21:09 *Uli shrugs
21:09 <Uli> it's not really a huge concern, I don't think
21:09 <Trip> No, I don't have a problem with it in general
21:10 <marasolo> Isn't that how the whole SW story goes? Things like that embellished now and then?
21:10 <marasolo> Whether or not you like it...
21:10 <jawastew> that's eu! take the idea and run with it
21:10 <jawastew> run it into the ground..
21:10 <Uli> "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force"
21:11 <Uli> KJA "Hmmmmmm"
21:11 <marasolo> lol
21:11 <jawastew> yes...
21:11 *Uli is now known as Uli|BriefStudy
21:12 <Havac> I want to see Jaina use shatterpoint to destroy a planet now.
21:12 <Havac> *poke*
21:12 <becca> yeah, like, she goes to the polar ice cap and...tap
21:12 <Havac> *BOOM!*
21:12 <becca> crumble
21:12 <jawastew> jaina.. the new death star
21:12 <becca> so what did everyone make of jacen's death aside from the lack of shatterpoints?
21:12 <marasolo> *That's* what he meant by sword of the jedi...
21:13 <becca> i wasn't...thrilled by the needles.
21:13 <jawastew> hahaha
21:13 <becca> that was just silly and really distracted me...
21:13 <jawastew> couldn't you picture that though?
21:13 <jawastew> lol
21:13 <jawastew> yeah
21:13 <Trip> lol
21:13 <jawastew> only good thing about it
21:13 <Trip> I love Denning's sight gags
21:13 <marasolo> ICk
21:13 <Trip> And by love I mean love/hate
21:13 <RF> Syringes?
21:13 <Trip> they somehow amuse me more than Allston's
21:13 <jawastew> by that point, he just needed to die
21:13 <jawastew> it was boring
21:13 <becca> yeah, needles syrninges...whichever
21:13 *Trip thinks of Aurra Sing in a top hat and chortles
21:13 <becca> it was...silly
21:14 <marasolo> Definitely on the bizarre side
21:14 <jawastew> it wasn't big battle in anticipation because he'd already been half destroyed halfway through the book
21:14 <becca> i wish the fight had been longer, honestly, since hte first fight had jaina powered up by luke
21:14 <jawastew> "Oops, can't kill him now.. we have another 200 pages to write.."
21:14 <marasolo> They had to keep the page count under 300
21:15 <marasolo> Which was a bummer
21:15 <becca> i mena, i'm picking at random things that I'd have liked for preference rather than serious complains, but I wish that the twins had *spoken*
21:15 <Trip> So... "Boba" is effectively exiled from Mandalore, eh?
21:15 <RF> Good. Now he can go retire.
21:15 <becca> you know, "Jacen, you were my brother, I loved you!"
21:15 <Trip> Isn't that just a teens bit *convenient* for certain parties?
21:15 <RF> Like he was supposed to. 20 years ago.
21:15 <Trip> :D
21:15 <Trip> *teensy
21:16 <becca> marasolo - you know that for a fact? any reason why it couldn't be longer than three hundred?
21:16 <marasolo> I was jk
21:16 <becca> aaah, okay, sorry!
21:16 <jawastew> I'm going to be Mirta Gev for halloween!
21:16 <Trip> Certain parties who are gay?
21:16 <Trip> And surnamed Beviin?
21:16 <Trip> :D
21:16 <marasolo> Sorry.... I got it on Tuesday and was going to finish it then, but didn't want the last book to be done in a day.. So i finished it yesterday
21:16 <becca> "boba" won't retire though. because as we keep getting told the mandos aren't tied to mandalore
21:16 <becca> so he can just be mandalore and have even MORE angst. oh JOY
21:16 <jawastew> he could retire
21:16 <Trip> No
21:17 <Trip> It means that Goran Beviin can now step in as Mandalore
21:17 <marasolo> Oh but his angst and joy was soo much fun
21:17 <Trip> after his pawn played his part in reuiniting the clans
21:17 <RF> Hahahahaha
21:17 <becca> his clones pawn
21:17 <Trip> all is proceeding as Krayt has forseen...
21:17 <Trip> :D
21:17 <becca> cloned
21:17 <marasolo> Felt bad for the guy that had the crush on Jaina...
21:17 <Trip> Except, Beviin doesn't want to be a Sith stooge
21:17 <marasolo> and Zekk
21:17 <Trip> Because who else gets killed in the plague?
21:17 <becca> yeah, I really REALLY hope that Zekk doesn't come back evil. that woudl be utterly lame.
21:17 <Trip> Oh, yeah. Venku.
21:17 <becca> Trip we have no idea
21:18 <becca> like really
21:18 <marasolo> And already done for him
21:18 <Trip> His Sith watchdog!
21:18 <Trip> :D
21:18 <Loyal_Imperial> He already did evil.
21:18 <sabarte> I suspect Venku will live
21:18 <becca> no, venku will probably be saved by that doctor jedidude
21:18 <RF> Bah. The Fett "family" is boring.
21:18 <dgxxx> an Imp is going to tell Jacen about the nanovirus
21:18 <Loyal_Imperial> Yeah.
21:18 <sabarte> It'd be almost appropriate if he didn't
21:18 <marasolo> They could always come up with a cure for it
21:18 <sabarte> but...
21:18 <Trip> Yep. But, he'll now know that Beviin is trying to double-cross the Sith.
21:18 <RF> I think it'd be hilarious if Fett wrote his memoirs.
21:18 <Trip> So: cue Mandalorian Civil War!
21:18 <Trip> :D
21:19 <RF> And lived off the proceeds for the rest of his life.
21:19 <RF> :p
21:19 <Trip> heh
21:19 <sabarte> another random radio drama note:
21:19 <becca> he already has enough moeny to live for the rest of his life...
21:19 <Trip> "I remember when I was a boy, I had an eel..."
21:19 <RF> "Boba Fett: The Last One Standing"
21:19 <sabarte> Lando still needs to kill Fett, like he promised
21:19 <RF> Yes.
21:19 <becca> yes.
21:19 <jawastew> was lando mentioned in lotf at all?
21:19 <sabarte> yes
21:19 <becca> yes
21:19 <RF> Allston.
21:19 <Trip> yes. :|
21:19 <becca