Inferno Chat
All timestamps Eastern.
20:00 <Dunc> CHAT'S ON!
20:00 <Horsey> if you didn't go to bed though, its still evening
20:00 <RF> If by chat, you mean pants...
20:00 <Dunc> FRESH, HOT CHAT! GET IT HERE!
20:00 <CaptainFantasti> Who said who to what now?
20:00 <Typo> No, pants off, chats on.
20:00 <Horsey> how much, dunc?
20:00 <Dunc> Okay, overall opinions?
20:00 <RF> Fresh dried chokie!
20:00 <Horsey> LOVED IT!
20:00 <Sinre> Ditto
20:00 <Dunc> I really liked it.
20:00 <Sinre> I was expecting a filler book
20:00 <Hav|argh> Heh. TPM game references FTW
20:00 * Horsey changes topic to 'Overall Opinions of Inferno.'
20:00 <Hav|argh> I loved it.
20:00 <Typo> I thought it was quite good.
20:01 <Hav|argh> It had Gavin and Kenth. What's not to love?
20:01 <dgxxx> I liked it a lot
20:01 <Dunc> It got stuff moving, which seems to have been much of the complaints with the previous stuff
20:01 <Sinre> Decided Caedus is nuts, mind you
20:01 <Dunc> Oh, he is.
20:01 <CaptainFantasti> To my everlasting surprise, I really liked Luke here.
20:01 <Sinre> And I was an apologist :p
20:01 <Typo> You were.
20:01 <dgxxx> Alema cares about Caedus <3
20:01 <Horsey> I liked the force use that Luke showed too
20:01 <Horsey> he's been a bit...lacking lately
20:01 <Dunc> Sorry Jacen, I don't think you can pull off super special Sith. :D
20:01 <CaptainFantasti> Well, it's about time he takes a hand in this whole Caedus mess.
20:02 <Sinre> No, but he can pull of Wannabe Sidious
20:02 <Sinre> * off
20:02 <Dunc> Pssh. Sidious woulda wiped his nose with Caedus.
20:02 <dgxxx> but all this Caedus stuff is makin Ben more interestin
20:02 <Typo> I still am not that into Ben, yet.
20:02 <Sinre> Poor Cal
20:02 <Horsey> Ben's got nothing on Cade
20:02 <Typo> But I think he can grow on me.
20:03 <Hav|argh> Caedus isn't nuts. He's only on his way there.
20:03 <CaptainFantasti> Not yet, Lisa.
20:03 <Hav|argh> :P
20:03 <Sinre> Very slowly
20:03 <Dunc> Oh no, he's nuts all right
20:03 <Sinre> He isn't nuts yet?
20:03 <Sinre> Whats your definition of nots, Hav :p
20:03 <Sinre> *nuts
20:03 <dgxxx> Caedus will loose touch with reality
20:03 <CaptainFantasti> Caedus is definitely nuts.
20:03 <Hav|argh> He's not yet fully nuts.
20:03 <Dunc> If this book did nothing else, it proved it
20:03 <CaptainFantasti> He already has, Big X.
20:03 <Hav|argh> He's simply having his thought processes warped by the dark side.
20:03 <Typo> I don't feel like he's totally nuts, yet.
20:03 <Typo> He's well on his way, though.
20:03 <Sinre> What Dark Side?
20:03 <dgxxx> in the Fury excerpt he kinda thinks he was the best in the duel against LUke
20:03 <Horsey> no, he's nuts
20:03 <Hav|argh> But too many glimmers of sanity show through for it to be fully nuts.
20:04 <Horsey> what glimmers?
20:04 <Typo> And the loss of his only 'moral support' is gone, so it's only a matter of time before he's fully gone.
20:04 <CaptainFantasti> I'm curious myself.
20:04 <Horsey> "I'm fully justified in slaughtering the wookiees"
20:04 <CaptainFantasti> Seriously.
20:04 <Sinre> Perhaps Jacen always was nuts, and Lumiya and Tenal Ka simply kept it in check
20:04 <Typo> In all seriousness, his plan worked, though.
20:04 * Dunc changes topic to 'Jacen/Caedus: Crazy Sith lord, or CRAZIEST Sith lord?.'
20:04 <Sinre> True, the Core has been saved
20:04 <dgxxx> Jacen/Caedus cant risk havin anyone who is not 100% with him
20:04 <Typo> Made him look horrible, but it worked.
20:05 <dgxxx> thats why he bomb Kashyyk
20:05 <Horsey> did the Anakin Solo get destroyed?
20:05 <dgxxx> nop
20:05 * Keralys has joined #EU
20:05 <Hav|argh> No, it survived.
20:05 <dgxxx> thanks to Alema
20:05 <Horsey> hi, Keralys
20:05 <Hav|argh> Unlike its namesake.
20:05 <Hav|argh> :)
20:05 <dgxxx> hey Keralys
20:05 <Dunc> I do wonder what the GFFA public opinion will be in the next book
20:05 <Sinre> And the Sith ship
20:05 * Horsey sets mode: +v Keralys
20:05 <Dunc> Or rather, how much of this got out?
20:05 * Hav|argh laughs madly.
20:05 * dgxxx feels bad about tiki
20:05 * Keralys quirks eyebrow
20:05 <dgxxx> i think it can be repared
20:05 <Hav|argh> I do wonder about that, Dunc.
20:05 <Horsey> we let her talk a lot right before we started, dgx
20:05 <Horsey> she'll be ok
20:06 <Hav|argh> Inferno seemed to set up Jacen losing the support of Niathal and the military.
20:06 <dgxxx> right
20:06 <Dunc> I hope so.
20:06 <Sinre> Depends on how much propaganda the GA has going
20:06 <Typo> Which was only a matter of time.
20:06 <Dunc> Niathal's not stupid.
20:06 <Keralys> And how much Niathal does.
20:06 <dgxxx> if Jacen loose the support of the military, whats left for him?
20:06 <Horsey> depends on public opinion of the Jedi as well
20:06 <CaptainFantasti> In the end it will have to be Jacen against the galaxy.
20:06 <Sinre> The GAG?
20:06 * Keralys shakes head.
20:06 <dgxxx> is it that big?
20:06 <Typo> And there's an obvious movement away from Jacen from the officers of the Navy.
20:06 <Keralys> There's a significant set of GAG officers who aren't fond of Jacen's methods.
20:07 <Keralys> Even before Inferno, much less now.
20:07 <dgxxx> how big is the GAG?
20:07 <Sinre> It has a Star Destroyer, and several battalions...and enough resources to tap the comlinks of almost everyone..?
20:07 <Keralys> A few battalions is all we're told.
20:07 <dgxxx> can it beat the Hapan fleet?
20:07 <Sinre> Doubt it
20:07 <Typo> That's pretty insignificant in the larger picture.
20:07 <Keralys> Yeah, but that's more an issue of dedicated officers (which you definitely have from a few battalions) and lost of credits.
20:07 <dgxxx> see?
20:07 <Sinre> Hapes has 20% of the GADF
20:07 <Keralys> Which is insane.
20:07 <Horsey> still?
20:08 <Horsey> How much of it has been lost?
20:08 <Keralys> Yeah.
20:08 <dgxxx> but.. maybe Vectivus holocron is some kind of "Win a war for dummies"
20:08 <Hav|argh> Hapes doesn't have 20% of the GADF.
20:08 <Keralys> It'd have made sense before it lost most of its fleets, but if the Hapan Home Fleet is 20% of the GADF...
20:08 <Keralys> Yeah. 1/5 is the number cited by Jacen and TK during Inferno, at least.
20:08 <Hav|argh> It independently hold 25% of the GADF's strenght.
20:08 <Hav|argh> *hold
20:08 <Keralys> They could be insane. Jacen is. But TK?
20:08 <Hav|argh> *holds
20:09 <Hav|argh> Which I'd prefer to interpret as 25% of its strategic fleet strength only.
20:09 <Keralys> And inside the GAG you have guys like Shevu who'd not go for it anyway...
20:09 * Hav|argh is now known as Havac
20:09 <Sinre> I don't believe the Vectivus Holocron can save us all...
20:09 <Typo> I'm sure Jacen'll kill them off soon.
20:10 <dgxxx> new topic: Darth Vectivus Holocron: ŋWhats in there?
20:10 <Sinre> I think it's a fake one.
20:10 <Havac> I'm still arguing, of course.
20:10 <dgxxx> fake one?
20:10 <Havac> But I tire of the nick.
20:10 <Keralys> Heh.
20:10 <dgxxx> hehe
20:10 <Sinre> It took the three days to hand it over to Alema
20:10 <CaptainFantasti> Big X, it made Vectivus sound like a Jewish accountant or something.
20:10 <Sinre> *them
20:10 <Keralys> That's quite a bit of prep time.
20:10 <dgxxx> thats Alema POV
20:10 <Keralys> Could be they were modifying the existing one, though.
20:10 <Havac> I think it's got more too it than Alema knows.
20:11 <Keralys> Seeing as they don't really seem to be trusting Alema, but also seem at least mildly sympathetic to Jacen.
20:11 <Havac> Whether it's something to help him or undermine him, there's something more there, and it suits the One Sith's purposes.
20:11 <Keralys> Or rather, mildly not antipathetic.
20:11 * Charlemagne19 has joined #EU
20:11 <Sinre> Possibly because she's not a Sith?
20:11 * Dunc sets mode: +v Charlemagne19
20:11 <Charlemagne19> Curse Solid Snake and his dominant genes!
20:11 <Keralys> That was my thought.
20:11 <Sinre> Hey Charlemagne
20:11 <Horsey> Hey Charles
20:11 <dgxxx> hey C19
20:11 <Charlemagne19> Hello!
20:11 <Keralys> Charles. *nods*
20:11 <CaptainFantasti> Well, isn't this a full house?
20:11 <RF> Haha. Flawed, recessive genes FTL.
20:11 <Sinre> But now we know Lomi Plo was a Sith Master, does that raise the concept that Alema is a Sith?
20:11 <dgxxx> yep
20:12 <Keralys> I was thinking about that, as well.
20:12 <Havac> Not really.
20:12 <Keralys> I don't buy it, though.
20:12 * Dunc snorts
20:12 <Havac> She doesn't appear to have any Sith teachings.
20:12 <dgxxx> Alema may be a sith later on the series, thanks to the Korriban ones
20:12 <Keralys> Lumiya and Lomi never seem to have passed on Sith teachings.
20:12 <dgxxx> and she is all "Balance"
20:12 <Keralys> She's still just a crazy dark Bugslut.
20:12 <Typo> Wait, Lomi was a sith master?
20:12 <Keralys> Yeah.
20:12 <Typo> I never caught that.
20:12 <Horsey> so she's still a Dark Jedi?
20:12 <Dunc> Denning gives the YJK folks way too much credit
20:12 <Sinre> As of Inferno
20:12 <Keralys> Dunc - how do you mean?
20:12 <Typo> I do not recall that being said.
20:12 <dgxxx> yep Alema = Dark jedi
20:13 <Dunc> Sometimes it works - the whole Tenel Ka thing. But I can't buy Lomi as a Krayt Sith though.
20:13 <Sinre> Lomi Plo was a member of the One Sith, Morto and Welks Master, Typo
20:13 <Typo> Yeah, I don't buy her being a Sith, though.
20:13 <Keralys> I can.
20:13 <Typo> Regardless of what they said. I think it was a misdirection.
20:13 <Keralys> She was, by all accounts, though. She was training Morto.
20:14 * dingo has joined #EU
20:14 <Keralys> Fair enough. But what are your grounds for arguing that?
20:14 <Horsey> welcome, Dingo
20:14 <dgxxx> Hello dingo
20:14 * Horsey sets mode: +v dingo
20:14 <Keralys> Good day.
20:14 <Sinre> Considering Lomi did things no Dark Jedi has done in history, and makes some Sith seem useless
20:14 <Sinre> Ditto Alema, and Welk
20:14 <dgxxx> day?
20:14 <Keralys> Heh. Like contracting bubbles of death.
20:14 <Keralys> To dingo.
20:14 <Sinre> Yup
20:14 <Sinre> Hey Dingo
20:14 <Keralys> [Side note: what's with the +v?]
20:14 <Horsey> we silenced tiki
20:15 <dgxxx> yep
20:15 <CaptainFantasti> How dare you!
20:15 <Horsey> cuz there's enough people talking w/o her
20:15 <Sinre> She loved Jello too much
20:15 <Keralys> Heh. True.
20:15 <Havac> I actually like Lomi as a Sith.
20:15 * Horsey snorts
20:15 <Charlemagne19> Overall, I think Lomi and her apprentice qualify as Sith.
20:15 <Dunc> It may be my own internal prejudices. I pretty much see anything from YJK as the GFFA equivalent of Scooby Doo.
20:15 <Havac> She was one of the few darksiders to show the unique, potent abilities I think Sith should have.
20:15 <Keralys> Mm.
20:15 <Dunc> "You meddling kids!"
20:15 <Sinre> Me too. I quite liked McEwoks idea that Gorog was a Sith name
20:15 <Havac> To set them apart from mere Dark Jedi.
20:15 <Keralys> A lot of it didn't strike me that way.
20:15 <Charlemagne19> Alema isn't so much a Sith as someone who thinks she is. She's even worse than Darth Krayt for "not getting it" so I'd claim she's not.
20:15 <Typo> I'm with Dunc here, but I guess we're in the minority.
20:16 <Keralys> It may not be the best-written series ever, but the plots seemed relatively decent.
20:16 * Keralys shrugs.
20:16 <Sinre> Jedi Under Siege remains an awesome book
20:16 <Keralys> Charles, I disagree. I don't think Alema thinks of herself as anything of the sort.
20:16 * Keralys agrees with Sin.
20:16 <dgxxx> She just want Balance
20:16 <Charlemagne19> The Young Jedi Knight books I view like Glove of Darth Vader. They're very "kids view" events that would have been entirely different from an adults perspective.
20:16 <CaptainFantasti> I agree with Big X and the other one.
20:16 <Charlemagne19> Alema yells at the Sith for not understanding Balance.
20:16 <dgxxx> Alema wants to leave the sith thing to Jacen
20:16 <Sinre> Because she's nuts
20:16 <Charlemagne19> Because she assumes that's what Sith are about.
20:17 <Charlemagne19> Dumb bugslut.
20:17 <dgxxx> hmm Alema could be Jacenīs hot secretary :P
20:17 <Typo> Except, you know, not hot.
20:17 <Sinre> Wait, if she's assuming the Sith are about Balance, she's assuming she's a Sith
20:17 <dingo> Alema is nuttier than a fruitcake, and I think she has an inkling of it.
20:17 <Keralys> I was mildly amused that, disfigurement and all, she mentally noted her own svelte figure...
20:17 <Keralys> I don't think she assumes the Sith are about Balance, though.
20:17 <Typo> Right.
20:18 <dgxxx> right Keralys
20:18 <Dunc> She's so vain, I bet she thinks LOTF is about her.
20:18 <Dunc> (Sorry.)
20:18 <Typo> I think she assumes the Sith are stupid for NOT following balance.
20:18 <Keralys> She seemed genuinely surprised they didn't know it; but she also seemed surprised when Leia didn't know it earlier in the series.
20:18 <Typo> lol.
20:18 <Horsey> lol Dunc
20:18 <Keralys> Agreed.
20:18 <CaptainFantasti> She assumes the Sith can help Jacen, and therefore restore balance.
20:18 <Charlemagne19> No, she assumed they WOULD follow balance.
20:18 <Charlemagne19> Yes, I love how Denning threw in her philosophy without any explanation.
20:18 <dgxxx> thats cause she thinks in a Sith galaxy , makin Balance is more easy
20:18 <Keralys> She also assumed Leia would understand it earlier in the series, and Lumiya also.
20:18 <dingo> But she also assumes that EVERYONE would follow balance.
20:18 <CaptainFantasti> Balance to her is a personal thing, it seems.
20:19 <Charlemagne19> But yes, I'm annoyed that Inferno essentially spoiled most of the details of Darth Krayt's creation.
20:19 <Horsey> CF and Charles' names are too similar
20:19 <Sinre> I'm not. I'm pleased.
20:19 <Horsey> Smikie, change to CapFan
20:19 <Dunc> Alema is an A++ lesson in unreliable narration.
20:19 <CaptainFantasti> NEVER!
20:19 <Sinre> I want more LotF and Legacy nods
20:19 <Horsey> lol
20:19 <dgxxx> hey we are about 3 days for knowin Krayts creation
20:19 <Sinre> Point, there
20:19 <Keralys> Her narrative back in Tempest seemed to indicate that the Sith seemed to understand it better... but not that they themselves were followers of it.
20:19 <Dunc> The list isn't out yet, dgxxx.
20:19 <Sinre> Something to do with Obi-Wan, and we now know Krayt was captured by the Vong
20:20 <dgxxx> monday ,right?
20:20 <CaptainFantasti> Precisely, Kera.
20:20 <Dunc> Believe nothing until Monday. ;)
20:20 <dgxxx> hehe
20:20 <Horsey> does it have to be Krayt, Sinre?
20:20 <dingo> Charles, it hasn't completely. We just know that he is Sith when he gets captured, but not how he became Sith.
20:20 <Horsey> could it be a different Sith Master?
20:20 <dgxxx> White Eyes?
20:20 <Keralys> And this told us almost nothing about his origins.
20:20 <Havac> I want to know more about White Eyes.
20:20 <Keralys> It tells us he was around pre-Vong, which we knew by Legacy 0.
20:20 <Havac> And I want to know what's up with Denning's recurring visions.
20:20 <Sinre> Well, I assume the Master of the One Sith is Krayt, yes
20:20 <dgxxx> sounds like Alema was flirtin "Hey...white eyes."
20:21 <Keralys> And that he was captured by the Vong at some point.
20:21 * Dunc changes topic to 'Alema and the Korriban Sith.'
20:21 <Charlemagne19> White Eyes refers to his Master.
20:21 <Dunc> (Did I spell that right?)
20:21 <Charlemagne19> So he's not Krayt.
20:21 <Keralys> That's the only new info we get.
20:21 <Keralys> White Eyes is definitely not Krayt.
20:21 <Keralys> (You did.)
20:21 <Dunc> Wyrlok #1?
20:21 <Sinre> Someone commented that White Eyes could be Wyyrlok, but I think Alema would notice the horns
20:21 <Keralys> That was my thought.
20:21 <Sinre> Beaten to it
20:21 <Keralys> Nope.
20:21 <Dunc> (That i did not spell right.)
20:21 <dingo> Definitely. White Eyes refers to his Master getting captured and meeting Vergere.
20:21 <Keralys> There are three of them; recall that it's Wyyrlokk III that we see in Legacy.
20:21 <Horsey> (you need a few more y's_
20:21 <Horsey> )
20:22 <Sinre> And the first Wyyrlok is male
20:22 <Havac> White Eyes could still be Wyyrlock.
20:22 <Sinre> He wasn't Chagrian, though
20:22 <Havac> The horns just aren't mentioned so as to not give anything away.
20:22 <Havac> Sinre: that's not established.
20:22 <dgxxx> Alema infected that sith in Korriban?
20:22 <dgxxx> with the flesh eatin bacteria?
20:22 <Sinre> Probably killed him
20:22 <Sinre> Morto
20:23 <Sinre> Poison + flesh eating bacteria
20:23 <Charlemagne19> But yes, I love the degrees of seperation.
20:23 <Havac> He wasn't mentioned as being Chagrian. Nothing was said that would eliminate the general assumption that he was human. But nothing was said to confirm it, either.
20:23 <Keralys> Sinre, I'm pretty sure all we know about W I was that he was male.
20:23 <Charlemagne19> Bane doesn't consider Krayt a real Sith who doesn't consider Jacen a real Sith
20:23 <Keralys> And?
20:23 <dgxxx> who doesnt consider Vader a real sith :P
20:23 <Charlemagne19> Yes.
20:23 <Charlemagne19> In other words, they're all real Sith and just elitist snobs
20:23 <CaptainFantasti> It seems respect among Sith is grudging at best.
20:23 <Keralys> Heck, they didn't consider Palpy much of a Sith at the end... so really, who cares?
20:24 <Keralys> Yeah.
20:24 <Sinre> Wyyrlok III mentioned that his grandfather was Wyyrlok I, so I assumed all three are Chagrian
20:24 <Charlemagne19> But yes, anyone think Darth Vectivus' holocron will play a role or will it be another dropped plotline?
20:24 <Sinre> Play a role
20:24 <Keralys> Which issue was that?
20:24 <Havac> It should.
20:24 <dingo> It's the whole arrogance thing, you failed in the end therefore you aren't Sith.
20:24 <Keralys> I can't imagine it won't. It was too significant.
20:24 <dgxxx> Hope so
20:24 <Havac> It's leading into an Allston book.
20:24 <Sinre> Issue 14, I believe
20:24 <Havac> Allston created Vectivus.
20:24 <dgxxx> and Allston created him
20:25 <Havac> It will play a role.
20:25 <CaptainFantasti> Yeah, Vectivus has to play a role,and he can't be what he seems.
20:25 <Keralys> There really haven't been that many dropped plotlines, ongoing chatter to the contrary.
20:25 <dingo> It would have to, given that it is a big lead-in at the end of Inferno.
20:25 <Havac> It's like Ben's pseudo-dark-side trip leading into the book named "Fury" with Ben on the cover.
20:25 <Havac> Obvious conclusion.
20:25 * Rohniss has joined #EU
20:25 * ChanServ sets mode: +o Rohniss
20:25 <dgxxx> Jacen saber is still not red right?
20:25 <Havac> Not yet.
20:25 <Sinre> Green as ever
20:25 <Keralys> No, but Ben has it.
20:25 <Havac> But Like took it.
20:25 <dgxxx> Hey Roh
20:25 <Dunc> Roh!
20:25 <Sinre> Hey Rohniss
20:25 <Keralys> Or rather, Luke took it.
20:25 <Havac> *Luke
20:25 <Horsey> Hey Roh!
20:26 <CaptainFantasti> Rohn!
20:26 <Havac> So he'll have to make another.
20:26 <dgxxx> Luke took it? i missed that
20:26 <Keralys> So he'll need to build a new one.
20:26 <Keralys> Ben took it to kill him with.
20:26 <Havac> Possibly a red one . . .? :)
20:26 <Sinre> A red one, I bet
20:26 <Keralys> Then Luke asked Ben to give it to him. Which he did.
20:26 <dgxxx> the red one, hopefully the black and gold hilt
20:26 <CaptainFantasti> Red is kind of a dead giveaway, though isn't it?
20:26 <Keralys> I don't think he'll care at that point.
20:26 <Rohniss> freetings :D
20:26 <dingo> He will need to make a new one, but will he go the 'red' one route and make things bleedingly obvious for everyone else?
20:26 <Keralys> It is, after all, *Revelation* we're talking about here.
20:27 <Sinre> With Ben and Luke trying to kill him, why would he bother to hide the reality?
20:27 <Keralys> Which would suggest it's that point that he reveals to all his Sithliness.
20:27 <Horsey> his actions have been a dead giveaway
20:27 <Sinre> Or the fact he killed Mara
20:27 <dgxxx> in what part Ben took Jacenīs saber?
20:27 <Keralys> He's already plenty dark. He just hasn't outright acknowledged his Sithhood.
20:27 <CaptainFantasti> But it seems, Lisa, that everybody else in the series is slow on the uptake.
20:27 <Horsey> meh
20:27 <Keralys> Right before he and Luke left the Anakin Solo.
20:27 <Horsey> it had to last 9 books
20:27 <Horsey> but specifically in Inferno, his actions spoke volumes
20:27 <Charlemagne19> Leia had a red saber in Corellian Trilogy.
20:28 <Havac> They're not slow on the uptake.
20:28 <Charlemagne19> I always felt that was wrong even then.
20:28 <Keralys> p. 263-264
20:28 <Sinre> Luke knows Jacen's gone somewhere, but he doesn't want to give up on him
20:28 <Havac> They're slow to take action because they don't want to accept what they're realizing and lose another Solo boy.
20:28 <dgxxx> i think now he gave up on him
20:28 <Charlemagne19> I think Luke gave up on Jacen when he tried to kill him in cold blood
20:28 <Keralys> I don't.
20:28 <Horsey> cuz Luke's an idiot
20:28 <dgxxx> Han already gave up on Jacen
20:28 <Horsey> NO REDEMPTION!
20:28 <Sinre> Hell, Luke was onto him in Bloodlines
20:28 <Havac> He just wasn't sure how to handle it.
20:28 <Keralys> Yes, but...
20:28 <Keralys> Thanks, Havac.
20:28 <Sinre> SW needs Redemption to be SW, methinls
20:29 <Sinre> *methinks
20:29 <Sinre> And romance
20:29 <Rohniss> I think the redemption angle is tired
20:29 <CaptainFantasti> I do agree with you there, Sinre.
20:29 <Rohniss> we need another Palps, or Exar
20:29 <dingo> Well, Leia's red one isn't referenced at all after that trilogy, so I think it's kind of ignored/retconned.
20:29 <dgxxx> but compared to Sacrifice and Inferno, Jacen was flowers in Bloodlines
20:29 <Rohniss> someone utterly unconcerned with thier evil
20:29 <Keralys> Yeah. To say the very least.
20:29 <Havac> I think redemption needs to be balanced against the realization that not everyone will accept it.
20:29 <Rohniss> they know what they are doing is bad... but they enjoy it and do it anyways
20:29 <Keralys> Redemption is never tired, but I'm with Havac.
20:29 <Havac> Redemption should be offered. But it cannot always be gained.
20:29 <Keralys> Exactly.
20:29 <Keralys> Where's the romance, though?
20:30 <Sinre> Point. NJO had the YV redeemed, and fans seemed to dislike that
20:30 <Dunc> :::coughcoughcoughKypcoughcoughcough::
20:30 <Keralys> :p
20:30 <Sinre> Jaina and Jag
20:30 <Horsey> oh dear
20:30 <Sinre> Obviously
20:30 <Horsey> don't start that, dunc
20:30 <Dunc> Yes, Dear
20:30 <Rohniss> I HATE how the Vong got off scot free
20:30 <Havac> I want Kyp romance, dammit!
20:30 <Horsey> :p
20:30 <Keralys> I think the issue with the Vong was that it was too quick, not that it happened.
20:30 <CaptainFantasti> I thought Kyp loved himself.
20:30 <Havac> I just want it with his mystery girlfriend and not with Jaina.
20:30 <dingo> I don't think that they will go down that path this time though. Not every dark character has to be, nor has been offered redemption.
20:30 <Sinre> Hey, I shipped for Kyp/Jaina romance until Legacy came out :p
20:30 <Keralys> (Not to mention that DR is now pretending that the invasion never happened.)
20:30 * Dunc changes topic to 'Redemption: Is it possible?.'
20:30 <dgxxx> to Jacen? nop
20:31 <Keralys> I think it's possible.
20:31 <Sinre> The invasion happened. The Yevetha are still dead.
20:31 <Keralys> But he's not going to follow Kyp's path.
20:31 <CaptainFantasti> It's always possible.
20:31 <Typo> Thank goodness.
20:31 <dgxxx> JAcen has a embrace of pain
20:31 <Rohniss> couldnt have happend to a nicer bunch
20:31 <CaptainFantasti> In this case, though, I'm not sure it'll happen.
20:31 <Horsey> Its possible. If Vader could be redeemed, then Jacen can.
20:31 <Keralys> Sure, but Coruscant is more back to normal in LotF than it is in Legacy...
20:31 <Horsey> I just don't want him to be
20:31 <Keralys> I do.
20:31 <dgxxx> ok if he is reedemed he must die
20:31 <Horsey> why?
20:31 <CaptainFantasti> If he is I want it to be while dying.
20:31 <Havac> DR taking a step back from the NJO is the worst thing they could do.
20:31 <Sinre> No it isn't. Our action just takes place away from the groves and parks that remained Vongformed.
20:31 <Keralys> Havac - agreed.
20:31 <Sinre> See Betrayal
20:31 <dgxxx> and show as a force ghost while they burn up his body in Endor
20:32 <Sinre> NJO happened, but a decade ago now
20:32 <Keralys> Sinre - sure, but that shouldn't be almost the governmental sectors.
20:32 <Dunc> A lot of us were all Vonged out after the NJO
20:32 <CaptainFantasti> I think I've seen Big X's scenario somewhere before.
20:32 <Dunc> That was a LONG series. Have some pity.
20:32 <dgxxx> no kiddin!
20:32 <Keralys> I'm bothered by the fact that they basically don't deal with the Senate's being the way it was, and so on.
20:32 <Sinre> Keralys - where else are they going to ferret it out the most?
20:32 <Keralys> Fair enough, I suppose.
20:32 <dgxxx> talkin about Betrayal... who was the person following Luke?
20:33 <Keralys> A mention here and there, though, wouldn't be out of order.
20:33 <Horsey> I think we all agree that there should be more Corran
20:33 <Horsey> :D
20:33 <dingo> The ending of TUF essentially put the Vong on the backburner for a good period of time in-universe, probably so that they could go down some different avenues then bring them back in later on.
20:33 <Sinre> Ten years is plenty, and I think Betrayal mentioned that the Second was still picking on Yuuzhan Vong pieces along the invasion corridor
20:33 <Sinre> Second Fleet, that is
20:33 <Charlemagne19> I think Vader is actually a bit different than Jacen, even if Vader always knew he was an evil ass****
20:33 <Keralys> I forgot about that.
20:33 <Keralys> I think redemption is definitely possible.
20:33 <Sinre> Unlikely, here, but possible
20:34 <Keralys> At least in the sense of turning away from where he's at.
20:34 <Sinre> What about Alema?
20:34 <Horsey> Allana could be the factor that turns him
20:34 <Sinre> No redemption for her?
20:34 <Keralys> He is, as it was put in another franchise of another character, "a believer" at this point - absolutely dedicated to what he believes is right.
20:34 <dgxxx> err she needs to be a sane person before redemption
20:34 <Charlemagne19> I don't know, I'd like to see Jacen try and kill Allana
20:34 <Dunc> Allana has a ton of possibilities
20:34 <Keralys> What will it take? Truth.
20:34 <Charlemagne19> Do the one thing Vader would never do.
20:34 <Charlemagne19> Show that he's even worse.
20:34 <dingo> Not a chance on Alema. She should be put out of her misery, but she'll survive LotF.
20:34 <Dunc> Damn you, Denning, for redeeming Hapes. ;)
20:34 <Charlemagne19> I said TRY and kill Allana.
20:35 <dgxxx> Im with C19
20:35 <Keralys> I'm thinking here of the Operative from Serenity, who interestingly shares a LOT of similarities with Jacen.
20:35 <CaptainFantasti> Ah, Vader cut his own son's hand off.
20:35 <Sinre> A lot a lot
20:35 <Charlemagne19> Yes, that's just tough love.
20:35 <Horsey> and Tenel Ka dies in defense of Allana? Great, another SW Character mother killed off
20:35 * Horsey rolls her eyes
20:35 <Charlemagne19> I don't know, the Operative is a lot more like a GAG officer.
20:35 <CaptainFantasti> He was content with Luke falling to his death, too.
20:35 <Dunc> How would Jacen handle Allana defying him?
20:35 <Charlemagne19> Jacen is more like Kim Jong Il at this point
20:35 * Keralys shakes head.
20:35 <Sinre> Bless you?
20:35 <dgxxx> Tenel Ka worries more about his peopel than his daughter
20:35 <Charlemagne19> He's not playing with a full deck
20:35 <dgxxx> so she cant go in a suicide mission
20:36 <Keralys> Sure he is. He's tormented, and heading toward insanity, but he's not there yet.
20:36 <Sinre> I think Kim's doing pretty well, considering
20:36 <Dunc> She's a bit too young at the moment, and I doubt she'll be old enough by the end to be taken seriously at it... But it would be interesting
20:36 <Keralys> He just honestly believes what he's doing is absolutely right - and that it must be done. He knows he's a monster. He doesn't like it.
20:36 <Charlemagne19> I'm not sure Keralys the whole "WHEN WE BURN KASHKYYK, NO ONE WILL DARE OPPOSE US" was just shy of Joruus C'boath
20:36 <Horsey> dgx: you think Tenel Ka would let Allana die just so her people still had her as queen?
20:36 <Horsey> I don't believe that at all
20:36 <Havac> Laundry time. I'll be back in a bit.
20:36 <Keralys> Again, more like the Operative.
20:36 <dgxxx> yep
20:36 <Charlemagne19> I'm not so sure, Keralys, he seems to think being a monster makes him even MORE good.
20:36 <Keralys> He kills children.
20:36 <CaptainFantasti> Well, it's the Godfather principle. Kill the mother, and you have to kill the daughter. Otherwise she might try and seek revenge.
20:36 <Keralys> Yes, same as the Op.
20:36 <Charlemagne19> The Operative was much more like Vader.
20:37 <dgxxx> its sad but is her duty
20:37 <Keralys> In the sense of being the hand, sure. But in the sense of his beliefs and the actions he took, no.
20:37 <Dunc> Charles: I think you may be onto something there
20:37 * Horsey makes note of dunc saying that
20:37 <Charlemagne19> I think people who think Jacen is operating from the greater good are unable to look past his professed motivations to the reality that he's acting solely to his whims.
20:37 <Dunc> But the operative was much less visible.
20:37 <Keralys> Jacen is more akin to Vader than Palpatine in the way he acts. though not in the way he plots.
20:37 <dgxxx> Jacenīs droid will have some important role?
20:37 <Dunc> More an Emperor's Hand in that respect
20:37 <Charlemagne19> I think a key point is that the Operative wasn't a LEADER.
20:37 <Keralys> Agreed.
20:37 <Charlemagne19> Jacen is.
20:38 <Dunc> Yes, he was a follower
20:38 <Sinre> Just not a very good one
20:38 <Charlemagne19> Ergo, the Operative can claim that he's serving a higher cause. Jacen is making up his cause
20:38 <Keralys> I'm not saying the parallels are perfect. But the motivations are nearly identical: sacrifice, do evil, for the sake of a higher cause.
20:38 <Keralys> But it's the exact same higher cause: a peaceful universe.
20:38 <Charlemagne19> That's what Jacen claims Keralys, but it seems to me Jacen is justifying himself.
20:38 <Charlemagne19> His actual motivations are power, knowledge, and revenge.
20:38 <Keralys> Revenge?
20:38 <Charlemagne19> He's at the Palpatine point
20:38 * Typo has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds.)
20:38 * Keralys quirks an eyebrow.
20:38 <Charlemagne19> 'BRING ME THE HEAD OF WHOEVER ****es me off!"
20:38 <dgxxx> ?
20:39 <Dunc> A peaceful universe? Heh. Jacen: UR DOIN IT WRONG.
20:39 <Keralys> Dunc - agreed.
20:39 <Keralys> :p
20:39 * Jello|Away is now known as Jello
20:39 <Charlemagne19> Yeah, Jacen has Cal Omas killed because Omas called him on his nerfshavit
20:39 <Jello> I am returned
20:39 <Horsey> Jello is back!
20:39 <Sinre> There was a better way?
20:39 <Keralys> But Charles, I don't really see that in his behavior.
20:39 <Keralys> Huzzah!
20:39 <Sinre> Hey Jelo
20:39 <Keralys> Jacen didn't do any such thing.
20:39 <Sinre> *Jello
20:39 <Keralys> He had Omas killed because it would push Ben farther along toward the DS>
20:39 <Charlemagne19> Jacen had Kashkyyk burned just to get at his parents. That's not the attitude of a man seeking a peaceful universe. That's the act of a monster wanting revenge, plain and simple.
20:40 <Horsey> Do you think Jacen was trying to get Ben killed as well, though?
20:40 <Sinre> Sorry, here, but the Corellians were building an assault fleet, everyone was building up fleets, and it was a situation that was unavoidable. I'm not seeing how Jacen could have acted different in response
20:40 <CaptainFantasti> I think it's entirely possible, Lisa.
20:40 <Charlemagne19> I don't know if Jacen is sane enough anymore to have any plans.
20:40 <Charlemagne19> He's not Lawful Evil.
20:40 <dgxxx> Jacen concept of peace = Everybody who disagree with me should die
20:40 <Charlemagne19> He's Chaotic Evil.
20:40 <Charlemagne19> His plans change from the moment to moment
20:40 <dingo> Jacen wouldn't have been concerned if Ben got killed since then he would show he wasn't 'worthy'.
20:40 <Charlemagne19> He's like the Joker more than Lex Luthro
20:40 <Charlemagne19> "I'll corrupt Ben....or KILL HIM!"
20:40 <dgxxx> C19 i think Alema will be the Joker
20:40 <Keralys> He had Kashyyyk burned to get at his parents???
20:41 <Keralys> He did it to pull the fleets from Kuat. Where are you coming up with that?
20:41 <Horsey> right, but that goes back to the whole, kill the mother and then there's a vengence thing y'all were just talking about
20:41 <Sinre> More to lure the Confederation to the Rim
20:41 <Horsey> by leaving Ben alive, he's got that factor to worry about
20:41 <CaptainFantasti> The Godfather principle!
20:41 <Horsey> so he tried to kill Ben, by sending him after Omas
20:41 <Charlemagne19> Oddly, Alema is insane but she seems more STABLE than Jacen. That tells you something.
20:41 <dgxxx> cause Alema isnt in charge of a whole fleet
20:41 <Keralys> Sinre - exactly.
20:42 <RF> *Grandfather Paradox
20:42 * Typo has joined #EU
20:42 <Charlemagne19> I dunno. I love how Jacen destroyed the 5th fleet and ordered everyone to fight to the death....and hurried to his shuttle
20:42 <RF> So long as it doesn't get Back to the Future crazy. :p
20:42 * Horsey sets mode: +v Typo
20:42 <Sinre> Keralys - People seem to forget just how bad the Confederation is
20:42 <Charlemagne19> It was the most cartoon villainy we've seen in a long time.
20:42 <Sinre> Wb Typo
20:42 <Keralys> Yeah.
20:42 <Keralys> Welcome back, Typo.
20:42 <Typo> Thank you for the voice, THIS TIME, Horsey.
20:42 * Arica has joined #EU
20:42 * Horsey sets mode: +v Arica
20:42 <Sinre> Oh quit moaning, Typo
20:42 <Sinre> :p
20:42 * Keralys laughs.
20:42 <Horsey> you're welcome
20:42 <Charlemagne19> I don't know, the Confederation is a ruthless group of real-politics but Jacen is not exactlty helping the matter.
20:42 <Typo> :p
20:43 <dgxxx> C19 but in the end he goes with the Anakin Solo rightr?
20:43 <Keralys> Charles - agreed, of course. But he had to do something.
20:43 <Keralys> And dgxxx, yes, he did.
20:43 <Charlemagne19> Besides, Tenel Ka dying seems like a sensible course of action with her alliance with Jacenitler
20:43 <dgxxx> oh got it
20:43 <dgxxx> Welcome Arica
20:43 <Sinre> Hey Arica
20:43 <Sinre> What else could Jacen do, though?#
20:43 <Keralys> What? Because TK is to be blamed for Jacen's being a jerk?
20:43 <Dunc> Arica!
20:43 <Keralys> Arica, greetings.
20:43 <Arica> Hay! Here through Dunc! Hi Dunc!
20:43 <Horsey> Welcome, Arica
20:43 <Dunc> Hi! :D
20:44 <dingo> Jacen's acting like any egotistical political leader, assigning motives to whoever in order to justify how he responds to them.
20:44 <CaptainFantasti> No, Kera, because in his mind, Tenel Ka betrayed him.
20:44 <Arica> I didn't buy it. What did I miss? ;-)
20:44 <Horsey> a good book
20:44 * Dunc changes topic to 'Inferno chat!.'
20:44 <Sinre> Caedus being a nutjob
20:44 <Dunc> It was really good
20:44 <Keralys> Probably the best to date in LotF.
20:44 <Sinre> More or less, Arica
20:44 <Keralys> Caedus is clearly on the ragged edge.
20:44 <Horsey> yup
20:44 <Dunc> Jacen's gone off the deep end, basically.
20:44 <Charlemagne19> Yes, Jacen lacks the humility to claim that he's serving any cause.
20:44 <Dunc> And Luke is BADASS.
20:44 <Horsey> Luke becomes a badass
20:44 <Rohniss> so.. is Jacen gonna be his own great-grandaddy (like Fry)
20:44 <Dunc> Roh....
20:44 <dgxxx> Embrace of Pain is back
20:44 <CaptainFantasti> Temporarily, Lisa.
20:44 <Keralys> I think killing Mara unhinged him more than he realized.
20:45 <Sinre> Oh, and Alema tracks down Krayt's Sith
20:45 <Keralys> Luke was insanely bad.
20:45 <Dunc> He tortures Ben. :(
20:45 <Dunc> (Jacen, not Luke.)
20:45 <Arica> ell, the death of his wife might break the noble farmboy, I figure.
20:45 <Horsey> He kills a bunch of wookiees :(
20:45 <Sinre> So Luke chops off a chunk of Jacen's head
20:45 <Charlemagne19> Luke really did well in this book.
20:45 <dgxxx> I find it kinda funny , why did jacen has his own personal Embrace of Pain
20:45 <Rohniss> Dunc...
20:45 <Keralys> I like the fact that Jacen was still reaching for his lightsaber, even as totally shredded as he was at the end.
20:45 <Keralys> Pretty hard core.
20:45 <Sinre> Perhaps he used it...?
20:45 <Sinre> The embrace
20:45 <dgxxx> to have focus?
20:45 <Keralys> Arica, I didn't mean bad in the sense of doing things wrong.
20:46 <Sinre> Addiction to pain, perhaps?
20:46 <dingo> Jacen has always stated that he finds that the Embrace is useful to him focusing.
20:46 <dgxxx> well he used his wounds pain to focus
20:46 <Keralys> He finally was doing things right. He was "bad" in the colloquial sense.
20:46 <Arica> I got'cha Keralys!
20:46 <Sinre> In the genocide-of-Wookies-and-my-own-soldiers sense
20:46 <Horsey> that's an interesting thought, Sinre
20:46 <CaptainFantasti> Sinre, Jacen's definitely into S&M.
20:47 <Dunc> Let's not get too much into that. :P
20:47 <Horsey> We need to put Roh and CapFan in their own room together
20:47 <Keralys> No sex conversations tonight. :p
20:47 <Horsey> :p
20:47 <CaptainFantasti> What?
20:47 <dgxxx> hehe
20:47 <Sinre> With an Embrace?
20:47 <Sinre> :p
20:47 <Dunc> #euperverts
20:47 * Keralys laughs.
20:47 <Horsey> haha
20:47 <RF> Make it.
20:47 <RF> Make it now.
20:47 * Keralys laughs out loud.
20:47 <RF> ...
20:47 <dingo> Keralys, it's the whole 'decent into madness/darkness' thing. He starts down it for good reasons (in his head) but actions continue to snowball until you hit the point at which you've gone too far.
20:47 <CaptainFantasti> I was making a valid point. It's quite clear Jacen really likes pain.
20:47 <RF> Then we, uh, kick Roh there.
20:47 <Arica> What was the plotline that was leaked that implied the fandom woulf get stirred up?
20:48 <Keralys> Agreed.
20:48 <Keralys> In this book? Hmm...
20:48 <Charlemagne19> I think Keralys is right.
20:48 <Arica> would,even
20:48 <Sinre> Um, Vergere is a Sith after all?
20:48 <Dunc> Hmm...
20:48 <Charlemagne19> Jacen starts out VERY DIFFERENT in the previous books
20:48 <Horsey> Kam's death?
20:48 <Dunc> Nah
20:48 <Sinre> Oh, Anakin kisses Tahiri now
20:48 <Charlemagne19> but I think the original Jacen is hell and gone removed from the current
20:48 <Horsey> or the whole Sith thing
20:48 <Sinre> Per the flow walking
20:48 <Havac> The A/T thing.
20:48 <Dunc> Yeah, the Tahiri time-travel stuff
20:48 <Horsey> The many Sith that exist on Korriban
20:48 <Charlemagne19> Inferno Jacen is like Caligula.
20:49 <Horsey> Cali....who?
20:49 <Keralys> Dingo - I think you're right to some extent. But I think it was the particular event of having had to kill his aunt - someone he loves and has long respected - that pushed him over the edge.
20:49 <Dunc> Jacen takes Tahiri back to make her younger self kiss Anakin, etc etc.
20:49 <Arica> OK, Sinre, I can see that making people wig!
20:49 <dgxxx> Hmm maybe if i read Tempest now it will make more sense
20:49 <Sinre> A Roman Emperor that was nuts
20:49 <Dunc> Horsey, look it up
20:49 <Sinre> Lisa
20:49 <dingo> That's not a bad analogy.
20:49 <Horsey> thanks, Sinre
20:49 <Keralys> I rather liked the flow-walking stuff personally, and I'm curious to see how it comes into play int he last three books.
20:49 <Dunc> BUT we got that whole 'the Force will make it right' thing
20:49 <Sinre> With it, Jacen is possibly the most dangerous Sith ever
20:49 * Coffee has joined #EU
20:49 <Dunc> Which honestly I don't buy
20:49 <Keralys> But that's also only Jacen's peerspective.
20:49 <McEwok> As I was saying...
20:50 <Keralys> Neither do I.
20:50 * McEwok hates interruptions.
20:50 <Keralys> Ewok!
20:50 <Dunc> Sue said it on the TOS
20:50 <Sinre> Go on, Ewok
20:50 <Charlemagne19> yes, Tahiri's 28 year old obsession with a 15 year old is rather bizarre
20:50 <Keralys> She also said that there would be more explanation in future books...
20:50 * Horsey sets mode: +v Coffee
20:50 <Dunc> Ewok: You new to chat rooms or something? ;)
20:50 <Horsey> hey Coffee
20:50 <RF> "The Force will make it right." is LFL's get out of Jail card.
20:50 <Coffee> hello
20:50 <Sinre> Hey Coffee
20:50 <McEwok> Sinre: no, it was a long time ago.
20:50 <Dunc> Or maybe that only works wirth little stuff
20:50 <dgxxx> Hello Coffee
20:50 <McEwok> C19: Anakin was 17.
20:50 <Keralys> Charles - I disagree. It's a grief reopened. I don't think it was something that was really a big deal to her until Jacen dangled it in front of her.
20:50 <RF> They can do whatever they want, then retcon it by saying, oh, the Force will fix it.
20:50 <Charlemagne19> Horsey, Caligula is the most famous insane and evil Emperor in history. He did a lot of bad things as Emperor of Rome.
20:51 <Dunc> For all the crap shippers will make over A/T, that was chimp change
20:51 <McEwok> C19: but, good, GOOD point on Caedus and flow-walking.
20:51 <Keralys> Good evening, Coffee.
20:51 <dgxxx> What do you think of LotF so far?
20:51 <Sinre> Which is more or less what I said, Charles :p
20:51 <CaptainFantasti> Bottom line: He was a bad guy.
20:51 <Charlemagne19> Yes, Sinre, but I was explaining in more detail.
20:51 <Dunc> But if the 'force will fix it,' HOW did he leave that message foe Leia in DN?
20:52 <Dunc> He CHANGED THE FUTURE. Period.
20:52 <Keralys> That was future, not past.
20:52 <Keralys> Which is different.
20:52 <Sinre> Somehow
20:52 <Dunc> By going back to the past
20:52 <Keralys> The present is seemingly immutable. The future is always in motion - unless it's fixed. Then it's not.
20:52 <Keralys> No, he went forward.
20:52 <Sinre> And stuck it
20:52 <Keralys> He had gone back, then he flow-walked forward.
20:52 <Dunc> hrm.
20:52 <Dunc> Which book was that? The second one?
20:52 <McEwok> Firs.
20:52 <Keralys> I think so.
20:52 <McEwok> EArly on.
20:53 <Dunc> i'll look
20:53 <dingo> Yeah, it was Joiner King.
20:53 <McEwok> Also, bear in mind: do we see Gorog before the flow-walk?
20:53 <Keralys> It was late int he first book or early in the second.
20:53 <McEwok> ;)
20:53 <McEwok> No, early on. Before we meet Raynar.
20:53 <Keralys> I was thinking about that, too.
20:53 <RF> Does he go to the future, or does he just "leave a message" that will be found in the future.
20:53 <Dunc> Didn't help Raynor somehow?
20:53 <McEwok> He goes to the future.
20:53 <Arica> Thnkns for filling me in, gang. Night!
20:53 <Keralys> He flow walks a short distance into the future and then leaves her a message there.
20:53 <Sinre> Night Arica
20:53 <Keralys> Good night!
20:53 <Dunc> Night!
20:53 <McEwok> Not .fully., but he bridges time.
20:53 * Arica has quit IRC (Quit: CGI:IRC.)
20:53 <dgxxx> night!
20:53 <RF> Stupid Flowwalking.
20:54 <Sinre> You said it, RF
20:54 <McEwok> Anyone able to check and find Raynar's memory when it surface?
20:54 <McEwok> *surfaces?
20:54 <Sinre> I liked it until he changed the past
20:54 <Horsey> Don't we ask for the authors to get creative though?
20:54 <RF> I've never liked it.
20:54 <Horsey> that's creative
20:54 <McEwok> When was that, Sinre?
20:54 <McEwok> I like it.
20:54 <McEwok> What's the problem?
20:54 <Sinre> In Inferno, he changed the past
20:54 <McEwok> Continuity is quirked all over anyway.
20:54 <RF> I dislike the idea of timetravel.
20:54 <Keralys> I don't have the books with me, or I would.
20:54 <McEwok> This makes it palatable.
20:54 <Keralys> *laughs*
20:54 <dgxxx> new topic: What do you think of Lotf so far?
20:54 <Coffee> Flow-walking was alright until they changed the past
20:54 <RF> Yes, but it doesn't have to be kriffed up.
20:54 <McEwok> We're sticking on this one.
20:54 <McEwok> Why not?
20:55 <RF> Flow walking only kriffs it up more.
20:55 <Sinre> In TJK and Bloodlines, he changed the future or watched. Didn't interfere
20:55 <RF> Or at least it has the potential to.
20:55 <McEwok> Not if it auto-retconns.
20:55 <Keralys> I like flow walking.
20:55 <McEwok> In TJK, we only KNOW he changed the future.
20:55 <McEwok> Thanks, Ker.
20:55 <RF> If it auto-retcons, then *what's the point*?
20:55 <RF> Why not just have a vision?
20:55 <McEwok> It's not flawless.
20:55 <Keralys> Story-telling possibilities, and the opportunity for it to NOT auto-retcon...
20:55 <Horsey> SW isn't flawless
20:55 <RF> There are ways the same thing can be achieved, without messy time travel complications.
20:56 <Sinre> But it is needlessly complex
20:56 <McEwok> It's fun.
20:56 <Sinre> ^ What RF said
20:56 <McEwok> It's .random., not complex
20:56 * Keralys wonders if Troy didn't do this just to torment all the A/T shippers...
20:56 <Coffee> Do the authors have some "plan" for the limits of flowwalking?
20:56 <Charlemagne19> We'll have a fight between all the various Star Wars universes and the Anti-Monitor
20:56 <Sinre> Jacen dying
20:56 <Keralys> From what Sue said, it seems so.
20:56 <Coffee> hopefully....
20:56 <McEwok> Ker: oh, obviously. On A/T.
20:56 <RF> They have "limits."
20:56 <RF> For now.
20:56 <McEwok> But I LIKED it. We got A/T content.
20:56 <McEwok> *is happy*
20:56 <RF> Bah.
20:56 <McEwok> brb again.
20:56 <Keralys> She commented that it would be further explained - in more detail as well as what the limits are - in future books.
20:57 <Sinre> We could have had that without Jacen changing the Kiss
20:57 <Charlemagne19> BTW, how DID Omas get explosives into his apartment?
20:57 <Sinre> Under his shirt?
20:57 <Sinre> At all times?
20:57 <Dunc> Allies
20:57 <Dunc> Duh.
20:57 <Sinre> Tradition, or some-such
20:57 <RF> Maybe they were always there. His private stash.
20:57 <Keralys> Whether that means in one of the intervening books or in TD's finale, who knows.
20:57 <dgxxx> Iīll go with Dunc
20:57 <Horsey> Jacen did it on purpose
20:57 <dgxxx> Allies of course
20:57 <Coffee> Did we see Omas's body....?
20:57 <RF> No.
20:57 <Horsey> it blew up
20:57 <RF> It was vaporized. ;)
20:57 <dingo> Jacen rigged him up. It's stated that a deadman's switch was put on him.
20:57 <Coffee> are you sure?
20:58 <Sinre> Yeah, so was Lumiya's in Tempest :p
20:58 <Coffee> he went out too much like borsk
20:58 <Sinre> And it was Denning who did it then
20:58 <Sinre> Too
20:58 <Coffee> and Denning wrote both those stories. Why would he use the same story plot twice?
20:58 <Havac> Jacen didn't rig him up.
20:58 <dgxxx> its like a heart bombo?
20:58 <dgxxx> bomb?
20:58 <Havac> Omas rigged himself up.
20:58 <Sinre> Yup
20:58 <Havac> He wanted to take out Jacen.
20:58 <Havac> Omas has way too much access to weapons in Inferno.
20:58 <dgxxx> when his heart stops.. BOOM! , is that way?
20:58 <Sinre> Perhaps Jacen knew?
20:58 <Sinre> I guess so, dgxxx
20:59 <Horsey> Coffee, cuz people like me don't remember that
20:59 <Keralys> Omas indicates that it's a fairly typical response with Chiefs of State... indicating some level of tradition.
20:59 <dgxxx> Is not hard for Omas to have access to explosive, guns, girls etc..
20:59 <Havac> Parallelism.
20:59 <Sinre> Girls just had to be added, didn't it :p
20:59 <Keralys> Ben wasn't old enough to remember Fey'lya, but Omas was, and probably saw the irony of it.
20:59 <dgxxx> yep :P
21:00 <Keralys> Sinre - eh?
21:00 <Havac> Omas is a pimp. We all know it.
21:00 <RF> Yes. Just like all the CoS before him.
21:00 <RF> Except for Mon Mothma.
21:00 <Sinre> Keralys - explosives, guns and girls. Girls coming out of the blue :p
21:00 <Keralys> I will say, Omas' ending was probably the best thing that ever happened to him.
21:00 <RF> You know what Jello would say, etc...
21:00 <Keralys> Gotcha.
21:00 <Havac> OK, I've got a lame floor rules meeting crap thing to go to and not pay attention at.
21:01 <Sinre> Mon Mothma had Madine, we all know it
21:01 <Keralys> Heh.
21:01 <Sinre> And Ackbar, probably
21:01 <Keralys> Have fun with that, Havac.
21:01 <Jello> Mon Mothma had Satan.
21:01 <RF> YES.
21:01 <Sinre> Palpatine had a Twi'lek harem
21:01 <RF> Jello's back.
21:01 <Sinre> :p
21:01 <Havac> Mon Mothma had Arhul.
21:01 * Keralys laughs out loud at Jello.
21:01 <RF> Mon Mothma had... hapes.
21:01 <Dunc> Now you're all just being silly
21:01 <Horsey> Palps had a twi'lek harem?
21:01 <Keralys> Sinre - careful, Jello might take your head off for the suggestion.
21:01 <Dunc> CHILDREN.
21:01 <dgxxx> why not?
21:01 <Charlemagne19> I had hoped Ben would be sent with a girlly looking hairstyle to fight Omas while he was on rollerskates.
21:01 <Sinre> Lisa, he did indeed.
21:02 <RF> It was a rumor, actually.
21:02 <Dunc> Okay, so... Luke
21:02 <RF> Never confirmed.
21:02 <Sinre> Keralys - I have nothing to fear from the Jello
21:02 <Sinre> :p
21:02 <Horsey> Luke was awesome
21:02 * Keralys chuckles.
21:02 <Dunc> Badass, yes?
21:02 <Sinre> Finally
21:02 <Horsey> I love how he pwned Jacen many times
21:02 <RF> :( :( :(
21:02 <Keralys> Luke pretty much owned everyone and everything.
21:02 <Charlemagne19> Well, I gotta run guys. Good chat but writing awaits.
21:02 <dgxxx> and Jaina was badass too
21:02 <Keralys> Good night.
21:02 <Sinre> Bye, C19
21:02 <dgxxx> bye C19!
21:02 <Horsey> bye Charles
21:02 <Dunc> Any thoughts on the funeral? The Mara fangirls are making me stabbity on that point, but I had no problems with it.
21:02 <Keralys> And I actually rather enjoyed Jag's presence in this book - and Zekk wasn't annoying, to my great shock.
21:02 * Charlemagne19 has quit IRC (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF).)
21:03 <Dunc> Of COURSE he's all spaced out.
21:03 <Keralys> I liked the funeral. Nothing wrong with it.
21:03 <Havac> Screw it, I'm not going.
21:03 <Dunc> The whole shirt thing was idiotic.
21:03 <Keralys> Good man!
21:03 <dgxxx> Maraīs funeral was good in the visual field
21:03 <Keralys> Shirt?
21:03 <RF> ...Shirt thing?
21:03 <Dunc> They need to stop beating the triangle. HI, WE GET IT.
21:03 <dgxxx> Jaina?
21:03 <Havac> Betting the shirt.
21:03 <Keralys> Oh, right.
21:03 <Dunc> And we don't care!
21:03 <Keralys> I found it amusing.
21:03 <dgxxx> Iīll bet
21:03 <Sinre> Eh?
21:03 <Dunc> Well, I don't.
21:04 <Horsey> Come on, Jag/Zekk are just like Luke/Han used to be
21:04 <Havac> I wish they'd get beyond the triangle and just resolve the damn thing.
21:04 <Horsey> its not a new concept
21:04 <dingo> You're right on the mark Dunc. It was done fairly well for the different character motivations. Those complaining are the usual suspects who want uber-Luke and Mara to win out and live happily ever after.
21:04 <Keralys> I have enough friends who would say things like that.
21:04 <Horsey> I dunno why you all hate it
21:04 <CaptainFantasti> I rather like it.
21:04 <Sinre> I don't
21:04 <Keralys> I'd like to resolution, sure. It's getting old. But I don't hate it.
21:04 <Dunc> Because I really don't give a shit about Jaina's love life
21:04 <Sinre> They can drag it out for a few more books as long as Emperor Fel appears :p
21:04 * CaptainFantasti has quit IRC (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1
Firefox 2.0.0.6/2007072518.)
21:04 <Keralys> Heh. Yeah.
21:04 <Havac> I'll second that.
21:04 <Dunc> Drop it or resolve it already.
21:04 <Keralys> IWoD!
21:05 <Horsey> How long was Han Leia dragged out?
21:05 <Sinre> 4 years
21:05 <Keralys> And that's IU.
21:05 <dingo> But we knew the resolution straight away.
21:05 <Sinre> A couple dozen comics and books
21:05 <Horsey> and that was non-galaxy destroying war years
21:05 <Keralys> (And it's really 8 if you count the OT.)
21:06 <Dunc> Well, Han and Leia were interesting people, though that didn't make COPL any less crappy.
21:06 <McEwok> brb again
21:06 <Sinre> Pfft
21:06 <McEwok> Don't go away.
21:06 <McEwok> CoPL rules.
21:06 <Keralys> We won't.
21:06 <Sinre> CoPL was a good book
21:06 * Dunc snorts
21:06 <McEwok> Much better Vader duel scenario than RotS.
21:06 <Dunc> Men.
21:07 * McEwok leaves people to find it. ;)
21:07 <Keralys> I enjoyed CoPL, though his description of Coruscant sucked.
21:07 <dgxxx> is COPL good?
21:07 <Keralys> It's fun.
21:07 * Albireo has joined #EU
21:07 <Sinre> Hey Albireo
21:07 <Keralys> Good evening, Albireo.
21:07 * Horsey sets mode: +v Albireo
21:07 <dgxxx> Hello Albireo
21:07 <Horsey> hey Albireo
21:07 <dingo> I don't mind the whole triangle, except that they keep finalising it, and then stirring it up again. Yes that happens in RL, but it's the timing between that is annoying.
21:07 <Albireo> Hello
21:07 <Dunc> COPL was... not good.
21:07 <Sinre> How so, Dunc?
21:08 <Dunc> The best thing I can say about it was that it was better than the Jedi Academy trilogy
21:08 <Keralys> Heh.
21:08 <Dunc> Three words: Gun of Command.
21:08 <dingo> CoPL was indicative of the time in which it was written in terms of the EU.
21:08 <Keralys> I could say a lot more than that, even if I hated it:
21:08 <Sinre> Yes, and that aside?
21:08 <Keralys> It's better than Planet of Twilight, or The Crystal Star, or several others of that era.
21:08 <Keralys> What didn't you like, Dunc?
21:09 <Dunc> It was just ridiculous.
21:09 <Sinre> I like PoT, even if it was a bit messy
21:09 <Dunc> I like COTJ, believe it or not
21:09 <Keralys> I liked the plot. I thought her writing had gotten worse since CotJ, and I didn't care for it then.
21:09 <Dunc> PoT is licensed crackfic, though
21:09 <McEwok> PoT = appropriatest acronym in SW
21:09 <Keralys> Hahahahaha.
21:09 <Sinre> I won't comment on Crystal Star for fear of religion-related violence :p
21:09 <Keralys> Yeah.
21:09 <McEwok> crackfic. heh.
21:09 <Dunc> But yeah, that whole era was screwed up
21:09 <Sinre> LOL
21:09 * Keralys laughs.
21:09 <Dunc> Too much cheese, not enough substance.
21:10 <Keralys> "and then came the Dark Times..."
21:10 <McEwok> SW authors' drugs of choice?
21:10 <Dunc> Star with KJA and right on through BFC
21:10 <McEwok> Hambly, weed.
21:10 <Keralys> I don't know, but McIntyre was tripping on something.
21:10 <McEwok> McEwok, alcohol.
21:10 <Dunc> The Dark Age of the EU
21:10 * Keralys ducks rage of Waru-worshippers.
21:10 <Keralys> Yeah.
21:10 <Sinre> *clubs Keralys*
21:10 <Dunc> In a way, NJO was a direct response to that.
21:10 <Keralys> The New Rebellion was pretty good.
21:11 <Dunc> Not so much
21:11 <Dunc> Mr. Bubble was in it!
21:11 <Sinre> Better, if you imagine Keuller as Palpatine Reborn
21:11 <Keralys> The Luke parts were lame, but I liked the idea.
21:11 <Dunc> And Luke was attacked by a giant sheepdog!
21:11 <Havac> The New Rebellion was crap.
21:11 <Coffee> njo was pretty good after that slew of Bantam books. But then the NJO overdid it...
21:11 <Keralys> hah. I forgot that part.
21:11 <Keralys> So, Inferno, anyone?
21:11 <Dunc> Yeah, NJO didn't have enough cheese. It was far too dense
21:11 <Havac> BFC is the only really good thing between TTT and HOT.
21:11 <McEwok> Anyway... did I misread C19, or was he suggesting that flow-walking Jacen created Caedus?
21:11 <Havac> The Corellian Trilogy was merely tolerable.
21:11 <Keralys> Mmm, I liked TCT okay.
21:11 <Sinre> I, Jedi? SoA? Isards Revenge?
21:12 <Dunc> Keralys is right, back to Inferno
21:12 <Keralys> And I, Jedi was great, along with several of the X-WIngs.
21:12 <dgxxx> er. Inferno?
21:12 <dingo> I think that you could use that to sum up a lot of the Bantam era, good ideas, bad execution.
21:12 <Keralys> But INFERNO!
21:12 <McEwok> Keralys: I'm .trying. to talk inferno.
21:12 <McEwok> Okay.
21:12 <Havac> I forgot the X-wing/I, Jedi.
21:12 <dingo> No, Anakin Skywalker.
21:12 <McEwok> ONE SITH.
21:12 <Horsey> Artoo was in Inferno! :D
21:12 <Dunc> McE: I don't think so.
21:12 <Havac> Yeah, they count.
21:12 <Keralys> Go, Ewok.
21:12 <Keralys> Yeah.
21:12 <Sinre> I didn't see it, Ewok, but maybe he was
21:12 <McEwok> One Sith? Have we covered them yet?
21:12 <Sinre> A little
21:12 <Keralys> We can do more.
21:12 <McEwok> Thoughts?
21:13 <Keralys> We talked identities a bit.
21:13 <McEwok> Lomi Plo = Sith Master.
21:13 <dgxxx> thoughts on Caedusīs droid?
21:13 <Keralys> I personally feel their role here is exactly what it ought to be.
21:13 <Sinre> Lomi Plo being a Sith Master, Vergere having met Krayt, Lumiya having decided to get herself killed
21:13 <Keralys> They're sitting on the side. "It's not our plan," so to speak.
21:13 <McEwok> It's a plan against them, IMHO.
21:13 <McEwok> They're... shrugging.
21:13 <Keralys> I kind of wonder if Lumiya wasn't right at some level. Regardless of how this turns out at the end of LotF, it will have weakened the galaxy and the Jedi for the eventual takeover of Krayt.
21:13 <Sinre> Vergere and Lumiya were right, though. The NJO must number a thousand Jedi by now. The One Sith is around 30
21:13 <McEwok> dg: SD-XX - psychotic. Interesting program.
21:14 <dgxxx> and he teases Jacen hehe
21:14 <dingo> I do have to wonder whether the droid is a plant that will eventually allow Lando to come into the mix again.
21:14 <Keralys> I really don't care for Vergere being a Sith, still.
21:14 <McEwok> Ker: was she?
21:14 <Keralys> It's too cut and dried.
21:14 <Keralys> They claim as much. I don't really buy it.
21:14 <dgxxx> well im goin to the point that he knows he is Mara killer
21:14 <Sinre> Caedus is designed to die, I don't see the problem
21:14 <McEwok> Does Lumiya support Krayt?
21:14 <Keralys> (I'm honestly still with Becca here.)
21:14 <Sinre> Yes and No
21:14 <Keralys> Sort of.
21:14 <Albireo> But why let Alema go after she has learned of the Sith on Korriban? What if the Jedi would caught her? Perhaps redeem her? And she would tell everything...
21:14 <McEwok> er on what?
21:14 <McEwok> *Ker, on what?
21:15 <McEwok> Does .VERGERE. support Krayt.
21:15 <Keralys> On Lumiya supporting Krayt.
21:15 <McEwok> Look at the events.
21:15 <Keralys> I don't think she does.
21:15 <Sinre> Because Luke would find the Sith on Korriban
21:15 <Sinre> Otherwise
21:15 <McEwok> And look at .Sacrifice..
21:15 <Keralys> Yep.
21:15 <McEwok> Vergere meets Krayt.
21:15 <McEwok> Vergere buggers off.
21:15 <Keralys> Right. And then does her own thing.
21:15 <McEwok> Vergere meets Lumiya.
21:15 <Keralys> And then apparently works with here.
21:15 <McEwok> Lumiya is a Rule of Two Sith.
21:15 <Albireo> At least Vergere did not openly oppose Krayt... So she accepted him on some level, at least.
21:15 <Keralys> But it still doesn't fit right with me.
21:15 <McEwok> No, she doesn't.
21:16 <Sinre> Why not?
21:16 <McEwok> Lumiya is invited to Korriban.
21:16 <Sinre> Ker, that is
21:16 <Sinre> And declines, yes
21:16 <Keralys> I think if anything she was prepping Jacen to deal with them at some point. *shrugs* By what we're given in the books, I'm wrong, but that's what my gut says.
21:16 <Sinre> Hmmm. Maybe.
21:16 <McEwok> Lumiya doesn't go (and just who is Lomi Plo's apprentice? Welk? Morto?)
21:16 <Sinre> Welk and Morto
21:16 <Keralys> Both.
21:16 * ARC-77 has joined #EU
21:16 <McEwok> Welk: any proof?
21:16 <Keralys> She was training both.
21:17 <McEwok> ;)
21:17 * Dunc sets mode: +v ARC-77
21:17 <McEwok> PPOR.
21:17 <dgxxx> hello ARC 77
21:17 <Horsey> hey ARC
21:17 <McEwok> Hi.
21:17 <ARC-77> hi everyone
21:17 <Coffee> hi
21:17 <Sinre> Actually, Ewok, Lumiya agrees to join Krayt, the meeting is crashed by the Vong, and then she meets Vergere, I bet.
21:17 <Sinre> Hi Arc
21:17 <Keralys> hold on
21:17 <ARC-77> haven''t gotten the book yet, but i figured id listen in on the spoilers ;)
21:18 <McEwok> Sinre: she agrees to .visit. Krayt. Then according to White Eyes, she meets Vergere, and SHE persuades Vergere to abandon Krayt.
21:18 <Sinre> Ah
21:18 <Sinre> Interesting
21:18 <McEwok> What would Lumiya make of Lomi Plo?
21:18 <dingo> Then again, it could all be a lie..... ;)
21:18 <Albireo> Before or after DN?
21:19 <McEwok> Before SbS.
21:19 <Keralys> Ewok - the actual text is, "Lumiya escaped, Lomi Plo and her apprentice did..."
21:19 <Sinre> Why would they lie to Alema?
21:19 <McEwok> Prove Welk's context? ;)
21:19 <Horsey> cuz Alema isn't a Sith
21:19 <Sinre> Considering they had every intention of killing her
21:19 <Keralys> (Implying "not" as the conclusion - also implying Welk. Not actually conclusive.)
21:19 <McEwok> Because they know she's lying to them.
21:19 <McEwok> They're testing her.
21:19 <McEwok> Finding wha she knows.
21:19 <McEwok> Look at it this way.
21:19 <Sinre> They know she's lying, do they?
21:19 <Keralys> It'd be nice misdirection if they didn't mean Welk, but that's definitely the strong implication.
21:20 <Albireo> Yet, why take the risk and let her leave?
21:20 <dingo> Or they're using her and Jacen since the opportunity presents itself.
21:20 <McEwok> They know Lumiya is a Rule of Two fanatic.
21:20 <Sinre> Yes
21:20 <McEwok> So Alema "oh, hi, I'm Lumiya's other apprentice" Rar...?
21:20 <McEwok> :-P
21:20 <McEwok> She's showing how little she knows.
21:20 <Keralys> Is her own entity.
21:20 <Horsey> But Lumiya's own training destroyed the rule of two thing
21:20 <McEwok> Though I still love her.
21:20 <Sinre> Vergere and Darth Sidious, anyone, and Tyranus?
21:20 <Sinre> It happens
21:21 <Horsey> shipping, Sinre?
21:21 <McEwok> No, Lumiya is the Shadow Apprentice of the Apprentice.
21:21 <Sinre> And I believe Alema said Lumiya was her 'Master'
21:21 * Horsey gags
21:21 <Albireo> Vergere was just an acolyte, a possible replacement for Tyranus?
21:21 <Sinre> Shipping, oh dear no
21:21 <dingo> Lumiya never takes Alema as an apprentice. She just uses a Dark Jedi to help with attaining her goals.
21:21 <Keralys> She did.
21:21 <McEwok> Vergere was never a sith.
21:21 <Keralys> But she hesitated first.
21:21 <Keralys> I'm with Ewok on that one.
21:21 <McEwok> Lumiya took Jax as app.
21:21 <Sinre> She just knew all about the 'other' Sith
21:22 <Albireo> What would be needed to convince doubters that Vergere was a Sith?
21:22 <Keralys> Sinre - yes
21:22 <Sinre> Her saying it herself?
21:22 <Keralys> I don't think you can convince them (us?) per se.
21:22 <Coffee> I wonder if any of the missing Emperor's Hands have anything to do with the "other" Sith?
21:22 <Keralys> Yeah, pretty much.
21:22 <McEwok> Albireo; an extensive flashback, and a signed note from MWS.
21:22 <Horsey> 'everything she says is a lie'
21:22 <Sinre> And the Inquisitors?
21:22 <Coffee> yes
21:22 <Keralys> Because her actions then and what others are purporting DO NOT line up.
21:22 <Sinre> Oh yes, Lisa, that's the point, isn't
21:22 <Havac> I want the One Sith to wrap up a bunch of floating dark Jedi.
21:22 <Havac> Tremayne, for example.
21:22 <Sinre> Ditto
21:22 <Keralys> No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
21:23 <Horsey> so her saying it wouldn't make me beleive it
21:23 <Keralys> Havac - yeah that'd be nice.
21:23 <McEwok> Random thought: Mara didn't vanish. She was retconned. ;)
21:23 <Keralys> The note fro MWS would about do it.
21:23 <Keralys> Hahahahaha.
21:23 <Sinre> True, true
21:23 <Keralys> Flow-walking FTW>
21:23 <Keralys> ;)
21:23 <Sinre> Thats a good point, there
21:23 <dgxxx> hehe
21:23 <McEwok> I was .wonderng. wtf she was doing holding Anakin's leash on Korriban.
21:23 <Keralys> So who flow-walked and made her body disappear?
21:24 <Keralys> A post-redemption Jacen?
21:24 <McEwok> Anyone got the patience for a massive theory?
21:24 * Keralys looks thoughtful.
21:24 <Sinre> It looks like Krayt grabbed the Shadow Academy and Nightsister remnants, at very least
21:24 <McEwok> No, no...
21:24 <Keralys> I do.
21:24 <Sinre> Go on, Ewok
21:24 <Keralys> (It was a joke.)
21:24 <McEwok> Okay.
21:24 <Sinre> In a nutshell
21:24 <Sinre> :p
21:24 <Keralys> Hold on, though.
21:24 <Keralys> Holding Anaki's leash on Korriban?
21:24 * Horsey grabs some popcorn
21:24 <Keralys> Whate you talking about?
21:24 <McEwok> Right: Tahiri .did. bring back Anakin.
21:24 <Sinre> *remains skeptical, but polite*
21:24 <Keralys> Okay, go.
21:25 <dingo> In regards to wrapping left-over dark-siders, I'd like for it to be not just that they took all of them in, but that they looked at all of them, and killed those that they didn't want.
21:25 * Keralys sits quietly and listens.
21:25 <Sinre> Dingo - like how Lumiya slaughtered the Prophets?
21:25 <McEwok> Because of Jacen. When Jacen becomes a Sith, this creates the probability of the .Inferno. flow-walk.
21:25 <McEwok> The Inferno flow-walk then has other effects.
21:25 <Keralys> Okay...
21:26 <McEwok> 1.) It creates Caedus.
21:26 <Keralys> Explain.
21:26 <Sinre> *nods slowly*
21:26 <McEwok> Jacen's flip-flopping personality isn't just schitzophrenia.
21:26 <Keralys> Flow-walking with Tahiri creates Caedus?
21:26 <McEwok> It's a timeline colision.
21:26 <dgxxx> ??
21:26 <Albireo> Oh dear...
21:26 <Sinre> He makes it happen, essentially, by pinning the future
21:26 <Coffee> interesting
21:26 <Keralys> Right...
21:26 <Horsey> so for Anakin to come back to life, Jacen has to give up his own life?
21:26 <McEwok> No, he makes it happen .retrospectively. by changing the past.
21:27 <dingo> Sinre, yes. Just like that.
21:27 <McEwok> No, nothing so complex.
21:27 <Horsey> this is so over my comprehension level
21:27 <Keralys> So his changing the past leads to his becoming Caedus and to Anakin's coming back?
21:27 <Albireo> So is Anakin on Korriban now? With the NSO?
21:27 <McEwok> Yes, Ker.
21:27 <McEwok> Yes.
21:27 <McEwok> 2.) Tahiri brings Anakin back ( :-P *this is where it gets tongue-in-cheek.)
21:27 <ARC-77> Horsey: mine too
21:28 <Sinre> I swear Denning invented flow-walking for you, Ewok
21:28 <McEwok> The flow will tend to prevent Anakin occupying the main narrative.
21:28 <dgxxx> Sinre you are wrong, McE is Denning :P
21:28 <McEwok> So he's "displaced" out to Korriban.
21:28 <Keralys> Because he's supposed to be dead, there.
21:28 * Horsey highfives dgx
21:28 * Dunc rolls her eyes
21:28 <dgxxx> :D
21:28 <Keralys> Right, where no one save the Sith can know he's there - no one in the main flow we're tracking here.
21:28 <McEwok> He's also the "dark man" of Betrayal.
21:28 <RF> I will call down Cthulhu if Anakin returns.
21:28 <Dunc> McEwok, do I need to get out your leash?
21:28 <Sinre> Dgxxx how many of us have been commented to be Denning at one point :p
21:29 <McEwok> 3.) Anakin saves Mara.
21:29 <Sinre> Dingo - a massive killing spree, considering Krayt only has thirty Sith
21:29 <Albireo> How?
21:29 <dgxxx> :P
21:29 <McEwok> Radical timeline change in Chapter 3.
21:29 <Horsey> its a daily occurrence in here, Sinre
21:29 <McEwok> The past has changed.
21:29 <McEwok> Effects catch up.
21:29 <RF> Stupid timetravel shenanigans.
21:29 <McEwok> We just get a massive timeline disruption.
21:29 <Keralys> Ah, I see...
21:29 <Sinre> Ewok - and the Force compensates by wiping Jacen out
21:29 <Albireo> Just?
21:29 <RF> This is why I don't like time travel.
21:29 <McEwok> Mara's no longer dead, so her body fades out in full view.
21:29 <Keralys> So why does that disruption have the effect it does?
21:30 <Keralys> Whoa, hold on...
21:30 <RF> Because dumb stuff happens.
21:30 <Sinre> I hate time-travel that can affect the past
21:30 <Dunc> I don't think so...
21:30 <Sinre> Viewing, yes
21:30 <Sinre> Changing, no
21:30 <McEwok> Mara didn't FG. It was just the best retcon spacetime could manage.
21:30 <Horsey> I'd rather go with the whole "Mara was holding on to give them more info before vanishing"
21:30 <dingo> Sinre, not that massive. There aren't exactly a giant amount out there, and in-fighting did get quite a few along the way. Plus, it would happen over a course of time.
21:30 <Coffee> spacetime makes retcons now?
21:30 * Keralys blinks.
21:30 * dgxxx is confused
21:31 <Keralys> No, that's good.
21:31 <Keralys> The timing is a bit coincidental though.
21:31 <Keralys> Why then?
21:31 <McEwok> Which is why on Korriban we find not just White Eyes (who, in his appearance in Jacen's .Tempest. vision looked/spoke like a Solo).
21:31 <McEwok> "The universe has a sense of humour" - Callista.
21:31 <Keralys> Ah...
21:31 <Keralys> I forgot about White Eyes being in his vision...
21:31 <McEwok> Jacen appears. And with him, the ripples.
21:31 <McEwok> Well the eyes go back to Leia's TG visions.
21:31 <Sinre> Dingo - it's still a tiny amount considering its 41 ABY by now, and Krayt had the Order up and running early enough to include the remnants of the Second Imperium
21:32 * RF_ has joined #EU
21:32 <Keralys> Jacen appears where?
21:32 <McEwok> At the funeral.
21:32 * Horsey sets mode: +v RF_
21:32 <McEwok> Training retcon.
21:32 <Keralys> Ah, okay, right.
21:32 <Albireo> Wasn't White Eyes claimed to be Arkanian in some speculations?
21:32 <Keralys> Because the ripples are centering on Jacen, who's the one forcing the changes.
21:32 <Keralys> I don't think White Eyes is the focus here... someone else is.
21:32 <McEwok> So, while the Force can't change most of the Jedi, Mara - now not dead - promptly disappears.
21:33 <Sinre> Okedokes, it's 2.30 am here, and I'm gonna sign off. I'll be visiting more often, one hopes. Night/morning all.
21:33 <Havac> OMG WHITE EYES IS ADASCA!!!!! :P
21:33 <Albireo> Ehere? Korriban.
21:33 <McEwok> Bye, Sinre.
21:33 <Keralys> Good night.
21:33 * McEwok laughs
21:33 <Horsey> night Sinre!
21:33 <dgxxx> night
21:33 * Horsey hugs Sinre
21:33 <Coffee> goodnight
21:33 <Keralys> Havac - nice.
21:33 <Keralys> Sinre, I'll be back in a few months.
21:33 <Coffee> great theory havac
21:33 <dgxxx> WHite EYes is the Mayor of Sernpidal!
21:33 <Keralys> Have a good one until then.
21:33 <Sinre> *Sinre hugs Sey*
21:33 <McEwok> White Eyes is good Sith. Raspy-voiced woman is bad Sith.
21:33 <Albireo> Perhaps the current lord Adasca...
21:33 <Havac> Bye, Sinre.
21:33 <ARC-77> bye
21:33 <Sinre> Keralys - then I will catch up with you then, maybe I'll drop you a few Pms or E-mail if I can
21:33 <Sinre> Night, all
21:34 * Sinre has quit IRC (Quit: CGI:IRC.)
21:34 * RF has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds.)
21:34 * RF_ is now known as RF
21:34 <Albireo> Is the raspy-voiced woman intended to be someone we previously know?
21:34 <dgxxx> in which part?
21:34 <McEwok> I'm suggesting not-dead Mara.
21:34 <McEwok> (PURELY for shits and giggles)
21:34 <Keralys> Heh.
21:34 * ChanServ sets mode: +o RF
21:34 <Havac> Hmm.
21:34 <Albireo> Korriban zombies
21:35 <Havac> If we were to look for actual patterns . . .
21:35 <Havac> Could be a barely-survived Roganda.
21:35 <Havac> But I don't really want to see her again.
21:35 <Keralys> Or Callista, for that matter.
21:35 <Albireo> Wasn't her body found?
21:35 <Coffee> It's Blackhole. He had white eyes.
21:35 <Havac> Ooooh, that's keen, Keralys.
21:35 <Albireo> Roganda's, I mean.
21:35 <Keralys> Callista? No.
21:35 <Keralys> Oh, Roganda, yes.
21:35 <dgxxx> maybe Darth NIhilīs grandpa :P
21:36 <Keralys> I'm pretty sure Roganda's body was one of those they found in the lab Irek had broken out of.
21:36 <RF> Uh. Roganda's in pieces.
21:36 <Coffee> They confirmed it was
21:36 <McEwok> Didn't we get a connection somewhere to them.
21:36 <dingo> I thought it could be another Nagai, but then I have this feeling that it was stated that Nihil was the first Nagai to join him in one of the comics.
21:36 <Albireo> It would be actually be great if the woman would be Callista.
21:36 <dgxxx> yep
21:36 <McEwok> Was Lumiya identified as her partner in the end?
21:37 <Havac> I don't think so.
21:37 <Havac> There have been hints Cronal was involved.
21:37 <Havac> Lumiya was more the type to kill Roganda than to work with her, though.
21:37 <Horsey> I'm hoping for a new character
21:37 <Albireo> That he was the Dark Jedi in the duel where Irek got mashed.
21:37 <Coffee> Cronal's behind everything.
21:38 <Keralys> We haven't gotten any good info on Cronal in a while...
21:38 <Albireo> But Cronal would be very old now. Except if he did go in stasis like Krayt...
21:38 <Albireo> Speaking of Krayt? Do you think that he will be revealed to have served Emperor as some point? As a Dark Side Adept?
21:39 <Albireo> *at some point*
21:39 <dgxxx> I think Krayt was in statis in the OT
21:39 <Keralys> Yeah, I don't think so.
21:39 <Horsey> Do you think we'll see more of the Sith in LotF or after LotF ? Or was this a random link to Legacy that we won't get more out of?
21:39 <Albireo> So Hett and Lumiya have no common history going back as far as OT?
21:40 <Albireo> Random link, I guess.
21:40 <Keralys> Don't seem to.
21:40 <dgxxx> I hope we get more links ( Imperial Knights)
21:40 <dingo> Random link. At C4 they kept saying that there wouldn't be any real cross-over except for little nods here and there.
21:41 <Horsey> thanks, dingo
21:41 <dingo> The didn't want to tie things up too tightly for future stories that could develop between the two.
21:42 <Keralys> McEwok, are you still around?
21:42 <dgxxx> so...
21:42 <dgxxx> so its the new republic :P
21:42 <McEwok> Ker, yes.
21:42 <Havac> That might be what they tell us, though.
21:42 <Havac> I'd expect something more from the Korriban Sith before all is said and done.
21:43 <Dunc> I wouldn't.
21:43 <Keralys> How seriously do you think Anakin's return is a possibility. This being TD we're talking about, and DR>
21:43 <Dunc> I expect it was fan service.
21:43 <Dunc> err, suspect
21:43 <Keralys> Because I don't think it's probably, but things are starting to look a little fishy here.
21:43 <Dunc> Anakin is dead. Mara is dead. McE is whacked.
21:43 <Albireo> I do not think that there is any chance for the return of Anakin.
21:43 <Dunc> (Sorry hon)
21:43 <Albireo> They are just playing with his fans.
21:43 <Keralys> Agreed. I'm not a fanboy in that sense. But they're pushing it.
21:44 <Albireo> And soon they will do the same with Mara.
21:44 <dingo> But if they explain all of it right now, it solidifies that entire story thread for the next 100 years in universe. That would suck for them if someone comes up with a good way to link the two eras a few years down the track. They learnt that from the Bantam stuff.
21:44 <Dunc> I agree, dingo. It's best left vague
21:44 <Albireo> They should already have come up with a good way to link LotF&Legacy. And it is just one, single era.
21:44 <Dunc> Y'all are lucky you got that much.
21:44 <Keralys> They won't do it. They're not going to step on DR's toes that much.
21:45 <Havac> I'm not saying they'll explain everything.
21:45 <McEwok> "Be careful what you wish for."
21:45 <Havac> I just expect them to show up a little more than just this once.
21:45 <Keralys> Ewok - to whom?
21:45 <Typo> Well, folks, I'm off.
21:45 <Typo> Goodnight.
21:45 <Dunc> Fans. :P
21:45 <McEwok> Everyone.
21:45 <Horsey> night, Typo
21:45 <dingo> Why should they already have one? A story should not be that immutable that if